A B-17 War Story

Charlie Brown was a B-17 Flying Fortress pilot with the 379th Bomber
Group at Kimbolton , England. His B-17 was called 'Ye Old Pub' and was
in a terrible state, having been hit by flak and fighters The compass
was damaged and they were flying deeper over enemy territory instead of
heading home to Kimbolton.

After flying over an enemy airfield, a German pilot named Franz
Steigler was ordered to take off and shoot down the B-17. When he got
near the B-17, he could not believe his eyes. In his words, he 'had
never seen a plane in such a bad state'. The tail and rear section was
severely damaged, and the tail gunner wounded. The top gunner was all
over the top of the fuselage. The nose was smashed and there were holes
everywhere .

Despite having ammunition, Franz flew to the side of the B-17
and looked at Charlie Brown, the pilot. Brown was scared and struggling
to control his damaged and blood-stained plane.

Aware that they had no idea where they were going, Franz waved
at Charlie to turn 180 degrees. Franz escorted and guided the stricken
plane to and slightly over the North Sea towards England He then saluted
Charlie Brown and turned away, back to Europe.

When Franz landed he told the C/O that the plane had been shot
down over the sea, and never told the truth to anybody. Charlie Brown
and the remains of his crew told all at their briefing, but were ordered
never to talk about it.

More than 40 years later, Charlie Brown wanted to find the
Luftwaffe pilot who saved the crew After years of research, Franz was
found. He had never talked about the incident, not even at post-war
reunions.

They met in the USA at a 379th. Bomber Group reunion, together
with 25 people who are alive now - all because Franz never fired his
guns that day.

Research shows that Charlie Brown lived in Seattle and Franz Steigler
had moved to Vancouver, BC after the war. When they finally met, they
discovered they had lived less than 200 miles apart for the past 50 years!

Square Wheels added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...

Charlie Brown was a B-17 Flying Fortress pilot with the 379th
Bomber Group at Kimbolton , England. His B-17 was called 'Ye
Old Pub' and was in a terrible state, having been hit by flak
and fighters The compass was damaged and they were flying
deeper over enemy territory instead of heading home to
Kimbolton.

After flying over an enemy airfield, a German pilot
named Franz
Steigler was ordered to take off and shoot down the B-17. When
he got near the B-17, he could not believe his eyes. In his
words, he 'had never seen a plane in such a bad state'. The
tail and rear section was severely damaged, and the tail
gunner wounded. The top gunner was all over the top of the
fuselage. The nose was smashed and there were holes everywhere
.

Despite having ammunition, Franz flew to the side of
the B-17
and looked at Charlie Brown, the pilot. Brown was scared and
struggling to control his damaged and blood-stained plane.

Aware that they had no idea where they were going,
Franz waved
at Charlie to turn 180 degrees. Franz escorted and guided the
stricken plane to and slightly over the North Sea towards
England He then saluted Charlie Brown and turned away, back to
Europe.

When Franz landed he told the C/O that the plane had
been shot
down over the sea, and never told the truth to anybody.
Charlie Brown and the remains of his crew told all at their
briefing, but were ordered never to talk about it.

More than 40 years later, Charlie Brown wanted to
find the
Luftwaffe pilot who saved the crew After years of research,
Franz was found. He had never talked about the incident, not
even at post-war reunions.

They met in the USA at a 379th. Bomber Group reunion,
together
with 25 people who are alive now - all because Franz never
fired his guns that day.

Research shows that Charlie Brown lived in Seattle and
Franz Steigler
had moved to Vancouver, BC after the war. When they finally
met, they discovered they had lived less than 200 miles apart
for the past 50 years!

There was at least honor in the way the Germans generally fought
the war, but especially the Luftwaffe, who had the utmost respect
for our Army Air Corps/Force guys, even though they were "blood"
enemies. Likewise, the Americans and Brits were considerate of
even the bomber crews bombing London and other targets more of a
military nature. Completely the opposite was true in the Pacific
with the Japs, and today, there is NO honor to warfare
whatsoever. Worse, the basic premises behind armed conflict
between sovereign nations has been gone for almost 2 decades
since the fall of the USSR and now our brave men and women get
blown up, literally, by real or would-be terrorists. Pretty hard
to target these folks, and we must be ever vigilent with the
"POWs" we capture. Which in turn leads us to the logical
conclusion that the War on Terror coalition simply MUST stop the
very near torture of captured men and women, no matter what
"intelligence" may be gleaned. While not endorsing ANY political
candidates, perhaps John McCain has said it best: if we torture
prisoners for ANY reason, we shouldn't expect human treatment
when our armed forces personnel are captured, certainly not the
kind of treatment Franz gave to Charlie Brown.

--
HP, aka Jerry

HEMI-Powered wrote:

Square Wheels added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...

Charlie Brown was a B-17 Flying Fortress pilot with the 379th
Bomber Group at Kimbolton , England. His B-17 was called 'Ye
Old Pub' and was in a terrible state, having been hit by flak
and fighters The compass was damaged and they were flying
deeper over enemy territory instead of heading home to
Kimbolton.

After flying over an enemy airfield, a German pilot
named Franz
Steigler was ordered to take off and shoot down the B-17. When
he got near the B-17, he could not believe his eyes. In his
words, he 'had never seen a plane in such a bad state'. The
tail and rear section was severely damaged, and the tail
gunner wounded. The top gunner was all over the top of the
fuselage. The nose was smashed and there were holes everywhere
.

Despite having ammunition, Franz flew to the side of
the B-17
and looked at Charlie Brown, the pilot. Brown was scared and
struggling to control his damaged and blood-stained plane.

Aware that they had no idea where they were going,
Franz waved
at Charlie to turn 180 degrees. Franz escorted and guided the
stricken plane to and slightly over the North Sea towards
England He then saluted Charlie Brown and turned away, back to
Europe.

When Franz landed he told the C/O that the plane had
been shot
down over the sea, and never told the truth to anybody.
Charlie Brown and the remains of his crew told all at their
briefing, but were ordered never to talk about it.

More than 40 years later, Charlie Brown wanted to
find the
Luftwaffe pilot who saved the crew After years of research,
Franz was found. He had never talked about the incident, not
even at post-war reunions.

They met in the USA at a 379th. Bomber Group reunion,
together
with 25 people who are alive now - all because Franz never
fired his guns that day.

Research shows that Charlie Brown lived in Seattle and
Franz Steigler
had moved to Vancouver, BC after the war. When they finally
met, they discovered they had lived less than 200 miles apart
for the past 50 years!

There was at least honor in the way the Germans generally fought
the war, but especially the Luftwaffe, who had the utmost respect
for our Army Air Corps/Force guys, even though they were "blood"
enemies. Likewise, the Americans and Brits were considerate of
even the bomber crews bombing London and other targets more of a
military nature. Completely the opposite was true in the Pacific
with the Japs, and today, there is NO honor to warfare
whatsoever. Worse, the basic premises behind armed conflict
between sovereign nations has been gone for almost 2 decades
since the fall of the USSR and now our brave men and women get
blown up, literally, by real or would-be terrorists. Pretty hard
to target these folks, and we must be ever vigilent with the
"POWs" we capture. Which in turn leads us to the logical
conclusion that the War on Terror coalition simply MUST stop the
very near torture of captured men and women, no matter what
"intelligence" may be gleaned. While not endorsing ANY political
candidates, perhaps John McCain has said it best: if we torture
prisoners for ANY reason, we shouldn't expect human treatment
when our armed forces personnel are captured, certainly not the
kind of treatment Franz gave to Charlie Brown.

--
HP, aka Jerry

like our prisoners received in Korea, Viet Nam, GW 1, and in Iraq?

redc1c4,
just curious.....
--
"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear
considerable watching."

Army Officer's Guide

redc1c4 added these comments in the current discussion du jour
....

There was at least honor in the way the Germans generally
fought the war, but especially the Luftwaffe, who had the
utmost respect for our Army Air Corps/Force guys, even though
they were "blood" enemies. Likewise, the Americans and Brits
were considerate of even the bomber crews bombing London and
other targets more of a military nature. Completely the
opposite was true in the Pacific with the Japs, and today,
there is NO honor to warfare whatsoever. Worse, the basic
premises behind armed conflict between sovereign nations has
been gone for almost 2 decades since the fall of the USSR and
now our brave men and women get blown up, literally, by real
or would-be terrorists. Pretty hard to target these folks,
and we must be ever vigilent with the "POWs" we capture.
Which in turn leads us to the logical conclusion that the War
on Terror coalition simply MUST stop the very near torture of
captured men and women, no matter what "intelligence" may be
gleaned. While not endorsing ANY political candidates,
perhaps John McCain has said it best: if we torture prisoners
for ANY reason, we shouldn't expect human treatment when our
armed forces personnel are captured, certainly not the kind
of treatment Franz gave to Charlie Brown.

like our prisoners received in Korea, Viet Nam, GW 1, and in
Iraq?

redc1c4,
just curious.....

First, let me make this clear: We, the United States, nor our
allies, should NEVER use torture in ANY form, period. Just
because our POWs were tortured by the North Koreans and Vietnames
is NOT a justification for us to do so. Further, we should NOT
fall to the level of our enemies. We hold ourselves up as a moral
and legal standard for the entire world, as well as the most
potent super power left today. That requires that we maintain
both an international law presence/compliance and that of our own
law, including civil law for contractors and the UCMJ. We may use
some forms of intense interrogation but when it is abundantl
clear to everyone witnesses it that what we are doing is nothing
more than a euphemism for stopping just short of intentional
infliction of real pain. If that description doesn't fit with
your view of our role as both the leader of freedome and
democracy in the world today as well as our role as policeman of
the world, perhaps you should examine your motives. Intelligence
experts also tell us point blank that except on VERY rare
occasioons, intelligence gathered under torture or even near or
ersatz torture is generally always useless as the prisoner will
do what any human in pain will do - say whatever the interrogator
wants for even a brief respite.

Bottom line is this: if we do not want our brave men and women
mistreated, mentally or physically tortured, excessively
agressive interrogation treatments employed, wounded or
intentionally maimed, or even executed in brutally painful ways,
that WE must NEVER restort to the tactics of our enemies. We are
better than that and must show it 100% of the time to both our
enemies and our friends, and we must NEVER mistreat any prisoner.

--
HP, aka Jerry

Right on Jerry !!!!!!! I agree with you 100% on this issue.


"HEMI-Powered" wrote in message
...
redc1c4 added these comments in the current discussion du jour
...

There was at least honor in the way the Germans generally
fought the war, but especially the Luftwaffe, who had the
utmost respect for our Army Air Corps/Force guys, even though
they were "blood" enemies. Likewise, the Americans and Brits
were considerate of even the bomber crews bombing London and
other targets more of a military nature. Completely the
opposite was true in the Pacific with the Japs, and today,
there is NO honor to warfare whatsoever. Worse, the basic
premises behind armed conflict between sovereign nations has
been gone for almost 2 decades since the fall of the USSR and
now our brave men and women get blown up, literally, by real
or would-be terrorists. Pretty hard to target these folks,
and we must be ever vigilent with the "POWs" we capture.
Which in turn leads us to the logical conclusion that the War
on Terror coalition simply MUST stop the very near torture of
captured men and women, no matter what "intelligence" may be
gleaned. While not endorsing ANY political candidates,
perhaps John McCain has said it best: if we torture prisoners
for ANY reason, we shouldn't expect human treatment when our
armed forces personnel are captured, certainly not the kind
of treatment Franz gave to Charlie Brown.

like our prisoners received in Korea, Viet Nam, GW 1, and in
Iraq?

redc1c4,
just curious.....

First, let me make this clear: We, the United States, nor our
allies, should NEVER use torture in ANY form, period. Just
because our POWs were tortured by the North Koreans and Vietnames
is NOT a justification for us to do so. Further, we should NOT
fall to the level of our enemies. We hold ourselves up as a moral
and legal standard for the entire world, as well as the most
potent super power left today. That requires that we maintain
both an international law presence/compliance and that of our own
law, including civil law for contractors and the UCMJ. We may use
some forms of intense interrogation but when it is abundantl
clear to everyone witnesses it that what we are doing is nothing
more than a euphemism for stopping just short of intentional
infliction of real pain. If that description doesn't fit with
your view of our role as both the leader of freedome and
democracy in the world today as well as our role as policeman of
the world, perhaps you should examine your motives. Intelligence
experts also tell us point blank that except on VERY rare
occasioons, intelligence gathered under torture or even near or
ersatz torture is generally always useless as the prisoner will
do what any human in pain will do - say whatever the interrogator
wants for even a brief respite.

Bottom line is this: if we do not want our brave men and women
mistreated, mentally or physically tortured, excessively
agressive interrogation treatments employed, wounded or
intentionally maimed, or even executed in brutally painful ways,
that WE must NEVER restort to the tactics of our enemies. We are
better than that and must show it 100% of the time to both our
enemies and our friends, and we must NEVER mistreat any prisoner.

--
HP, aka Jerry

HalfPowered wrote:

redc1c4 added these comments in the current discussion du jour
...

There was at least honor in the way the Germans generally
fought the war, but especially the Luftwaffe, who had the
utmost respect for our Army Air Corps/Force guys, even though
they were "blood" enemies. Likewise, the Americans and Brits
were considerate of even the bomber crews bombing London and
other targets more of a military nature. Completely the
opposite was true in the Pacific with the Japs, and today,
there is NO honor to warfare whatsoever. Worse, the basic
premises behind armed conflict between sovereign nations has
been gone for almost 2 decades since the fall of the USSR and
now our brave men and women get blown up, literally, by real
or would-be terrorists. Pretty hard to target these folks,
and we must be ever vigilent with the "POWs" we capture.
Which in turn leads us to the logical conclusion that the War
on Terror coalition simply MUST stop the very near torture of
captured men and women, no matter what "intelligence" may be
gleaned. While not endorsing ANY political candidates,
perhaps John McCain has said it best: if we torture prisoners
for ANY reason, we shouldn't expect human treatment when our
armed forces personnel are captured, certainly not the kind
of treatment Franz gave to Charlie Brown.

like our prisoners received in Korea, Viet Nam, GW 1, and in
Iraq?

redc1c4,
just curious.....

First, let me make this clear: We, the United States, nor our
allies, should NEVER use torture in ANY form, period. Just
because our POWs were tortured by the North Koreans and Vietnames
is NOT a justification for us to do so. Further, we should NOT
fall to the level of our enemies. We hold ourselves up as a moral
and legal standard for the entire world, as well as the most
potent super power left today. That requires that we maintain
both an international law presence/compliance and that of our own
law, including civil law for contractors and the UCMJ. We may use
some forms of intense interrogation but when it is abundantl
clear to everyone witnesses it that what we are doing is nothing
more than a euphemism for stopping just short of intentional
infliction of real pain. If that description doesn't fit with
your view of our role as both the leader of freedome and
democracy in the world today as well as our role as policeman of
the world, perhaps you should examine your motives. Intelligence
experts also tell us point blank that except on VERY rare
occasioons, intelligence gathered under torture or even near or
ersatz torture is generally always useless as the prisoner will
do what any human in pain will do - say whatever the interrogator
wants for even a brief respite.

Bottom line is this: if we do not want our brave men and women
mistreated, mentally or physically tortured, excessively
agressive interrogation treatments employed, wounded or
intentionally maimed, or even executed in brutally painful ways,
that WE must NEVER restort to the tactics of our enemies. We are
better than that and must show it 100% of the time to both our
enemies and our friends, and we must NEVER mistreat any prisoner.

--
HP, aka Jerry

that's where you're wrong: since it is a given that our people will be tortured
&
killed, we need to make it a national policy that the government officials, and
all who participate in said acts will be targeted and killed ruthlessly,
by whatever means necessary.

redc1c4,
anything else is foolishness.
--
"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear
considerable watching."

Army Officer's Guide

"redc1c4" wrote in message
...
HP, aka Jerry

that's where you're wrong: since it is a given that our people will be
tortured
&
killed, we need to make it a national policy that the government
officials, and
all who participate in said acts will be targeted and killed ruthlessly,
by whatever means necessary.

You seem to be talking of any enemy troop, HP is talking about prisoners of
war. Prisoners of War should at all times be properly treated, in accordance
with the Geneva Convention, even if they are not regular armed forces. And
if I may add: if the US Govt and/or the US military endorses.shares your
point of view (which I seriously hope they don't), don't be seriously
surprised if your enemies begin randomly killing US civilians all over the
globe, wherever they appear in the street.

Your status as the sole military superpower comes with obligations. You
claim to be the best nation in the world, so demonstrate to the world that
you know what that means, and that you are proud to represent that nation
and it's values. Your example is being followed, even by those who hate you.
You need to make it a national policy (and an important and integral part of
your military's training) to be a ambassador, not only to your nations
government, but also to your peoples values.

Ron