Super Regionals

Parowan offers not only outstanding soaring with plentiful landing
locations (for the most part), but it is also one long days travel
from some 10 western states. The waiting list is
gigantic............some 80+ last year! How do (did) we deal with all
these folks that want to fly Parowan? Last year, everyone within
region 9 was automatically in + another 5 reverse seeded pilots from
outside the region. This resulted in an overloaded sports class that
took up some 20 slots, leaving the other 3 classes to fight over the
remaining 30 slots (50 max).

Now, let's look at the sports class. We had quite a group with no
experience, save a silver badge and who were they competing against?
Top of the line; Striedeck, Wills, Harrison; Guys with high seeding,
because that's what it took to get in! Is this what we want for our
entry lavel competitor, raw recruits racing against national /
international class pilots?

I believe the rules committee dealt with this discrepancy in a fair
way, let 0-50% from within region 9, with no questions asked, then let
the individual seeding decide the rest. I was 68th on the list and got
in just 2 days before it started. A couple of those already in had to
drop out, one broke his bird and the other had job issues. Most
couldn't drop everything, so the list quickly got to me at 68th. Those
who couldn't drop everything were good pilots that really wanted to
come, were they treated fairly? This problem only happens at Parowna
and Mifflin and I say the Super Regionals is a good idea. Newbies, if
you can't get into Parowan, come to Air Sailing for some "not so
intense" entry level racing.
JJ Sinclair

On 12/31/07 11:37 AM, in article
, "JJ
Sinclair" wrote:

Parowan offers not only outstanding soaring with plentiful landing
locations (for the most part), but it is also one long days travel
from some 10 western states. The waiting list is
gigantic............some 80+ last year! How do (did) we deal with all
these folks that want to fly Parowan? Last year, everyone within
region 9 was automatically in + another 5 reverse seeded pilots from
outside the region. This resulted in an overloaded sports class that
took up some 20 slots, leaving the other 3 classes to fight over the
remaining 30 slots (50 max).

Now, let's look at the sports class. We had quite a group with no
experience, save a silver badge and who were they competing against?
Top of the line; Striedeck, Wills, Harrison; Guys with high seeding,
because that's what it took to get in! Is this what we want for our
entry lavel competitor, raw recruits racing against national /
international class pilots?

I believe the rules committee dealt with this discrepancy in a fair
way, let 0-50% from within region 9, with no questions asked, then let
the individual seeding decide the rest. I was 68th on the list and got
in just 2 days before it started. A couple of those already in had to
drop out, one broke his bird and the other had job issues. Most
couldn't drop everything, so the list quickly got to me at 68th. Those
who couldn't drop everything were good pilots that really wanted to
come, were they treated fairly? This problem only happens at Parowna
and Mifflin and I say the Super Regionals is a good idea. Newbies, if
you can't get into Parowan, come to Air Sailing for some "not so
intense" entry level racing.
JJ Sinclair

Just because Parowan is a great place to fly and people from outside R9 want
to fly there, shouldn't give everyone who wishes to fly in our Regional the
right to do so.

The "problem" that was solved with the new rules is this: how to make it
easier for outsiders wanting to invade the R9 Regionals and prevent R9
residents from flying in our own contest. I personally think the three you
mentioned, plus all the others from outside R9, should stay home.

Why not just have a National contest at Parowan every year to satisfy the
easterners (and New Zealanders, apparently), and quit stacking the rules
against residents of Region 9? Let our Regional contest be truly a Regional
contest.

This is manipulation of the system pure and simple, to benefit the few and
discriminate against the little guy.

Sorry, that's just my opinion. I respectfully recognize that others
disagree.

If that part of the country is so good, have another contest at Ely!
Parowan is so tight, I understand one could not even fly there with a
wingspan of more than 20 m?

You guys just have to get your act together and arrange contests at
Ely or similar. If pilots want to race there! One should not have to
tell anyone to stay home?

soarski



On Dec 31, 12:07*pm, Bullwinkle wrote:
On 12/31/07 11:37 AM, in article
, "JJ





Sinclair" wrote:
Parowan offers not only outstanding soaring with plentiful landing
locations (for the most part), but it is also one long days travel
from some 10 western states. The waiting list is
gigantic............some 80+ last year! How do (did) we deal with all
these folks that want to fly Parowan? Last year, everyone within
region 9 was automatically in + another 5 reverse seeded pilots from
outside the region. This resulted in an overloaded sports class that
took up some 20 slots, leaving the other 3 classes to fight over the
remaining 30 slots (50 max).

Now, let's look at the sports class. We had quite a group with no
experience, save a silver badge and who were they competing against?
Top of the line; Striedeck, Wills, Harrison; Guys with high seeding,
because that's what it took to get in! Is this what we want for our
entry lavel competitor, raw recruits racing against national /
international class pilots?

I believe the rules committee dealt with this discrepancy in a fair
way, let 0-50% from within region 9, with no questions asked, then let
the individual seeding decide the rest. I was 68th on the list and got
in just 2 days before it started. A couple of those already in had to
drop out, one broke his bird and the other had job issues. Most
couldn't drop everything, so the list quickly got to me at 68th. Those
who couldn't drop everything were good pilots that really wanted to
come, were they treated fairly? This problem only happens at Parowna
and Mifflin and I say the Super Regionals is a good idea. Newbies, if
you can't get into Parowan, come to Air Sailing for some "not so
intense" entry level racing.
JJ Sinclair

Just because Parowan is a great place to fly and people from outside R9 want
to fly there, shouldn't give everyone who wishes to fly in our Regional the
right to do so.

The "problem" that was solved with the new rules is this: how to make it
easier for outsiders wanting to invade the R9 Regionals and prevent R9
residents from flying in our own contest. I personally think the three you
mentioned, plus all the others from outside R9, should stay home.

Why not just have a National contest at Parowan every year to satisfy the
easterners (and New Zealanders, apparently), and quit stacking the rules
against residents of Region 9? Let our Regional contest be truly a Regional
contest.

This is manipulation of the system pure and simple, to benefit the few and
discriminate against the little guy.

Sorry, that's just my opinion. I respectfully recognize that others
disagree.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Dec 31, 5:14*pm, wrote:
If that part of the country is so good, have another contest at Ely!
Parowan is so tight, I understand one could not even fly there with a
wingspan of more than 20 m?

You guys just have to get your act together and *arrange contests at
Ely or similar. If pilots want to race there! One should not have to
tell anyone to stay home?

soarski

On Dec 31, 12:07*pm, Bullwinkle wrote:



On 12/31/07 11:37 AM, in article
, "JJ

Sinclair" wrote:
Parowan offers not only outstanding soaring with plentiful landing
locations (for the most part), but it is also one long days travel
from some 10 western states. The waiting list is
gigantic............some 80+ last year! How do (did) we deal with all
these folks that want to fly Parowan? Last year, everyone within
region 9 was automatically in + another 5 reverse seeded pilots from
outside the region. This resulted in an overloaded sports class that
took up some 20 slots, leaving the other 3 classes to fight over the
remaining 30 slots (50 max).

Now, let's look at the sports class. We had quite a group with no
experience, save a silver badge and who were they competing against?
Top of the line; Striedeck, Wills, Harrison; Guys with high seeding,
because that's what it took to get in! Is this what we want for our
entry lavel competitor, raw recruits racing against national /
international class pilots?

I believe the rules committee dealt with this discrepancy in a fair
way, let 0-50% from within region 9, with no questions asked, then let
the individual seeding decide the rest. I was 68th on the list and got
in just 2 days before it started. A couple of those already in had to
drop out, one broke his bird and the other had job issues. Most
couldn't drop everything, so the list quickly got to me at 68th. Those
who couldn't drop everything were good pilots that really wanted to
come, were they treated fairly? This problem only happens at Parowna
and Mifflin and I say the Super Regionals is a good idea. Newbies, if
you can't get into Parowan, come to Air Sailing for some "not so
intense" entry level racing.
JJ Sinclair

Just because Parowan is a great place to fly and people from outside R9 want
to fly there, shouldn't give everyone who wishes to fly in our Regional the
right to do so.

The "problem" that was solved with the new rules is this: how to make it
easier for outsiders wanting to invade the R9 Regionals and prevent R9
residents from flying in our own contest. I personally think the three you
mentioned, plus all the others from outside R9, should stay home.

Why not just have a National contest at Parowan every year to satisfy the
easterners (and New Zealanders, apparently), and quit stacking the rules
against residents of Region 9? Let our Regional contest be truly a Regional
contest.

This is manipulation of the system pure and simple, to benefit the few and
discriminate against the little guy.

Sorry, that's just my opinion. I respectfully recognize that others
disagree.- Hide quoted text -


Well I'm a bit torn on this one. I flew my first contest in 20 years
at Parowan in 2004 and have flown there in 2005 and 2007. I'm from out
of Region 9. I've gotten in every time, but it's always a nail biter,
which is a problem given how much I have to plan ahead to take time
off. Speaking pesonally, I am thankful to to have an easier time
getting in as it is an exceptional soaring venue.

I don't really agree that Parowan is not a good place for new contest
pilots. In the west prety much all the sites have some rough terrain
and I find Parowan to be more friendly than most. I also don't
necessarily agree that newbies shouldn't mix with top pilots in the
sports class. If top pilots elect to fly Duos and end up in Sports,
that's a fine choice an it's kind of cool fo a newbie to go toe to toe
with the top guns even if they kick your butt in the end (I am a
personal recipient of said butt kicking at Parowan in 2004. I had a
fine time just the same and I don't think I got in any one's way). I
think it's not a bad way to get new folks up the curve a bit faster -
have them fly with experienced pilots sooner rather than later.

I guess I find the Super Regional idea feels a bit too much like it
started with a particular end in mind, like "get the following guys in
at Mifflin and Parowan". I would rather see some ability to admit out
of Region pilots to ALL regionals while preserving the character of
Regionals as stepping stones for pilots in developing contest flying
skills.

I think a longer lead time for a non-refundable deposit will eliminate
a few casual entrants and avoid some of the "last minute shuffle" at
the bottom of the entry list - that's probably a good thing for all
concerned. I also think allowing some leeway for organizers to set
minimum/maximum class sizes to balance the field and reserve a
specified number or percent of spots as preferential for in-Region
makes sense in general for regionals, not just for specific sites.

That said, I expect the contest committee elected to do it the way the
did for a reason, so I'm willing to see how it goes in 2008.

9B

Soarski wrote........
One should not have to
tell anyone to stay home?

When a contest is over-subscribed, some MUST be told to stay home. The
issue is how to fairly deal with all those who wish to enter. The
entrant list spikes to over 80 just before the 60 day cut-off and then
a good dozen or so drop out about 2 weeks before the contest. This
"casual interest", isn't fair to those who really would like to fly,
but aren't in a position to jump up and go, a day or two before it
starts. I believe the proposed 50% rule deals fairly with both groups.
Parowan was found and nurtered by region 11 folks and then region 2
folks (KS & crew) held the first regionals there followed by sports
nats. I see the place as a national treasure, not unlike a national
park, and should be made available to all.
I say again.............good on ya' rules committee!
JJ

Ah, one of my fav topix.

I lean with Bullwinkle on this one. I only agree with the Super
Regional to a certain degree from an organizer's point of view; were I
the organizer, I would want some leeway in the type of contest I was
going to have.

But it's an SSA sanctioned *regional* contest. That means something.
Getting sanctioning means you have to satisfy someone else's
requirements first, then do your own thing. The medals awarded at the
end will still say "Region 9", not "Super Region 9".

Maybe they should sanction/approve a "Super" regional only after a non-
Super regional has already been scheduled in the same region. Even if
I had a single-digit national pilot ranking, it should not be an
automatic ticket to fly in every contest I like.

~ted/2NO

On Dec 31, 12:27�pm, Tuno wrote:
Ah, one of my fav topix.

I lean with Bullwinkle on this one. I only agree with the Super
Regional to a certain degree from an organizer's point of view; were I
the organizer, I would want some leeway in the type of contest I was
going to have.

But it's an SSA sanctioned *regional* contest. That means something.
Getting sanctioning means you have to satisfy someone else's
requirements first, then do your own thing. The medals awarded at the
end will still say "Region 9", not "Super Region 9".

Maybe they should sanction/approve a "Super" regional only after a non-
Super regional has already been scheduled in the same region. Even if
I had a single-digit national pilot ranking, it should not be an
automatic ticket to fly in every contest I like.

~ted/2NO

JJ, trust me on this. You can put a group together, call Dave at
Parowan Air, and book your group over whatever period of days are
available. You can even do it a year in advance to get the best time.
He gives no preference to the contest folks. The contest folks just
fill all the ramp spots plus some, so theirs no more room for a week
or so. Your group can fly as much as they want, have nightly BBQ's
and post your flights to the OLC for daily winners, You don't need a
contest to go to Parowan. Ya, you can even play your own music to
dance too.
The folks who got into the 07 Parowan regionals, like the big guns
such as KS and Wills/Newfield, Itner, and others, did so under our
present rules. They choose what class they wanted to fly in. KS could
of brought his 27, and I am sure the others could of gotten other
rides. BUT they choose their toys for their reasons, and Sports Class
was their choice. The winner of Sports Class in 07, was a quiet guy,
came from within region, who flys with a big grinn, and whipped them
all. They also were asked to help us set the place up for the racers,
hold morning racing camps and be daily advisors for "lite". Because of
them, I will be forever grateful. Not one of them ever complained, but
I did get some strange looks ever so often.
Gunter and Wolfgang ( hes ok now, but he became very ill) showed
up, folks from Warner Springs helped out big time, as many did and we
had our "girls for Nick". Also, within the region, I did get an
angel, her name is " Mickie", and she was the one who really came
forward and put in long hours for all of you. Ever racer that I
remember asked if they could be of some help, all I had to do was ask.
Folks make the place, and they are the ones who make it safe. That's
a fact. Period.
What I am getting at, JJ, is their really an answer for Parowan.
Well, maybe, just maybe, as history has given us, are that the
past Regionals and Sports Class Nationals, never filled up. Yep, never
filled up. Maybe the answer is an earlier "full no refund entry fee"
would be a better idea, as it would cause more to really "THINK" about
it and giving more notice to those on the waiting list to move up.
Maybe Parowan or Perry, or any other "oversubscribed contest" such as
New Castle, the full entry fee should be required to be paid 60 days
in advance and "no refunds except emergences unless deemed OK by the
Contest manager" should be put into place, as a better idea.
Thermal tight, Soar high, Fly safe, # 711 retired CM, born
again racer.

I am sure JJ is familiar with this option #711, since he was in the
group that we organized and brought our own tow planes when we first
opened Parowan to big time soaring in the early 90's

Retired Racer NK

Let me look at this another way... Pareto's law says that 80% of your
entrants are cannon fodder. The top pilots will always win, the 80 % guys
will always lose. The BIG BUT in this is the unrecognised fact that the
race is built on the backs of, and funded by the guys with no chance to win.
Excluding these people is not the way to grow the sport. The guys on top
need to recognise this, and while I respectfully disagree with both groups
because they are drawing lines in the sand in different places, NOBODY has
address the real fact. This race looks to be a priveledge instead of a
right........... So why can't you have "qualifying" for Parawon. Seeded
pilots have a process to do this at a national level. Region 9 pilots might
want to consider a method to seed themselves so the guys putting in the time
to "earn" the entry get in. As magnanimus as it sounds, the race is open to
everybody, and maybe THAT in itself is the issue. There are some, like ME,
a very low time beginner that could write the check to enter this thing, and
probably have a great time, that are the wrong guys to be there. Gently
filtering them out is critical to growing the event. Contests of this
caliber are for competent cross country guys, not guys like me who just
haven't got the experience........ Regional pilots need to be seeded and
the organisers just need to ask how many of the local guys get slotted
before accepting out of region contestants. It IS there contest after
all...... I see the issue being Region 9's lack of a seeding process, and
the non-9 pilots hard feelings at being excluded by the numbers. Both can
be worked on..................... What does a guy like me do? I'm calling
Karl to set up a "talking ballast" day.....
Enjoy the new year.
Scott.

XYZ wrote:
Let me look at this another way... Pareto's law says that 80% of your
entrants are cannon fodder. The top pilots will always win, the 80 % guys
will always lose. The BIG BUT in this is the unrecognised fact that the
race is built on the backs of, and funded by the guys with no chance to win.
Excluding these people is not the way to grow the sport. The guys on top
need to recognise this, and while I respectfully disagree with both groups
because they are drawing lines in the sand in different places, NOBODY has
address the real fact. This race looks to be a priveledge instead of a
right........... So why can't you have "qualifying" for Parawon. Seeded
pilots have a process to do this at a national level. Region 9 pilots might
want to consider a method to seed themselves so the guys putting in the time
to "earn" the entry get in. As magnanimus as it sounds, the race is open to
everybody, and maybe THAT in itself is the issue. There are some, like ME,
a very low time beginner that could write the check to enter this thing, and
probably have a great time, that are the wrong guys to be there. Gently
filtering them out is critical to growing the event. Contests of this
caliber are for competent cross country guys, not guys like me who just
haven't got the experience........ Regional pilots need to be seeded and
the organisers just need to ask how many of the local guys get slotted
before accepting out of region contestants. It IS there contest after
all...... I see the issue being Region 9's lack of a seeding process, and
the non-9 pilots hard feelings at being excluded by the numbers. Both can
be worked on..................... What does a guy like me do? I'm calling
Karl to set up a "talking ballast" day.....
Enjoy the new year.
Scott.


Scott,
There is a seeding process in place. The national pilot ranking system
is used. Previously, the entrants are accepted as
1. In region pilots by seeding order
1a - some spots are reserved for reverse seeding order to let in some
new guys
2. Any spots left for out of region pilots by seeding order.
Ties broken by date of entry. This is slightly oversimplified, but its
all detailed in the rules.

The change is to reserve somewhere for 0-50% of the slots for in region
pilots, still by seeding order. The rest from anywhere, again by seeding
order.

The issue the rules writers are dealing with is there are enough region
9 pilots entering that very few, if any spots have been left for out of
region pilots. And they keep hearing the stories of how wonderful it is
and want to play, too. Well, they are really trying to solve the generic
problem with popular regional contests, not just Parowan and Region 9.
It just has a bigger effect on the excluded Region 9 pilots than it
might on pilots in the east half of the country where there are many
more "nearby" regional contests to choose from. Distances between
soaring sites and competition pilot population density is much lower out
here.

The oversubscribed regional is a fairly recent problem. The old rules
have been in place for a long time, but the success of some sites and
organizers in attracting entries have brought the rules into question.
Its a nice problem to have, too many glider pilots, unfortunately its
very localized.

-Dave Leonard