Starting a 135 op?

All,

Can anyone tell me in this day and age if it's practical to run a 135,
IFR one-man, one-plane operation and make at least some money,
considering insurance and FAA related red-tape that would accompany
such an endeavor? If so, how many hours would one require (from a
realistic perspective) beyond the 1200 required to act as PIC in a 135
operation?

Would adding a second pilot increase the red tape exponentially?

I assume there must be plenty of bush pilots flying float planes in
Alaska doing just this same thing, right?

--Dan

Dan wrote:
All,

Can anyone tell me in this day and age if it's practical to run a 135,
IFR one-man, one-plane operation and make at least some money,
considering insurance and FAA related red-tape that would accompany
such an endeavor? If so, how many hours would one require (from a
realistic perspective) beyond the 1200 required to act as PIC in a 135
operation?

Would adding a second pilot increase the red tape exponentially?

I assume there must be plenty of bush pilots flying float planes in
Alaska doing just this same thing, right?

--Dan


It *could* be practical if a series of circumstances existed for
you such as: a) you have a ready, reliable and not too expensive
IA/A&P that can work with you and keep you flying, b) you have
a customer (or customers) that will guarantee you have work for
the foreseeable future and c) you are happy working long and/or
weird hours worrying about things that could go wrong for little
money.

On Feb 20, 1:04*am, Dan wrote:
All,

Can anyone tell me in this day and age if it's practical to run a 135,
IFR one-man, one-plane operation and make at least some money,
considering insurance and FAA related red-tape that would accompany
such an endeavor? *If so, how many hours would one require (from a
realistic perspective) beyond the 1200 required to act as PIC in a 135
operation?

Would adding a second pilot increase the red tape exponentially?

I assume there must be plenty of bush pilots flying float planes in
Alaska doing just this same thing, right?

* * * * --Dan

Three years ago my mechanic/fbo put a ton of money into an Aztec,
hired a pilot, hired a firm to create the books, had the FAA in on 3
different trips inspecting the plane, the office, the books, taking
the pilot for a check ride, yadda, yadda... Then once approved to
operate 135 he began bidding for jobs... He found that the competition
was playing hardball, even running a Learjet on jobs for less than he
was willing to do with the Aztec, they often bid jobs for barely more
than their fuel costs apparently losing money to establish rapport
with the shipper... The competitors took jobs where they would be
deadheading back after the run and still underbid him, plus they beat
him to the punch by taking the run a half day sooner because he was
still trying to find cargo for both directions... In the end he went
belly up...

If you are going to succeed you will do most of the flying yourself,
you will need to be an A&P to hold your maintenance costs down, you
will be ready to live out of the airplane yes, sleep in it for a
week at a time as you hopscotch across the country taking cargo from a
to b, then deadheading to c for a run to d, and so on, you will likely
have to get by with only insurance for for PL & PD and take the chance
you won't destroy the plane which means your family will have to
front the money for the plane instead of a bank loan ...
Other than that, it should be a piece of cake!

denny

On Feb 20, 5:26*am, Denny wrote:

Three years ago my mechanic/fbo put a ton of money into an Aztec,
hired a pilot, hired a firm to create the books, had the FAA in on 3
different trips inspecting the plane, the office, the books, taking
the pilot for a check ride, yadda, yadda... Then once approved to
operate 135 he began bidding for jobs... He found that the competition
was playing hardball, even running a Learjet on jobs for less than he
was willing to do with the Aztec, they often bid jobs for barely more
than their fuel costs apparently losing money to establish rapport
with the shipper... The competitors took jobs where they would be
deadheading back after the run and still underbid him, plus they beat
him to the punch by taking the run a half day sooner because he was
still trying to find cargo for both directions... *In the end he went
belly up...

If you are going to succeed you will do most of the flying yourself,
you will need to be an A&P to hold your maintenance costs down, you
will be ready to live out of the airplane yes, sleep in it for a
week at a time as you hopscotch across the country taking cargo from a
to b, then deadheading to c for a run to d, and so on, you will likely
have to get by with only insurance for for PL & PD and take the chance
you won't destroy the plane which means your family will have to
front the money for the plane instead of a bank loan ...
Other than that, it should be a piece of cake!

denny

Wow! That sounds like quite a nightmare. Apparently aviation and
successful entrepreneurialism do NOT go hand in hand. You paint a
picture so bleak (and it might well be true) that it makes me wonder
why anyone goes into aviation.

I have a good paying job now, but I'd like to do something more fun
when I get to a point in my life I can work and not be concerned with
making top dollar (i.e. 10-20 years out). I'm trying to plan out how
I might prepare for doing something in aviation.

Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
think I'd like to fly a lot. However, it is expensive so it would be
better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.
I'm not sure the CFI route is for me. I prefer cross country flights
with a definate destination.

--Dan

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:37:49 -0800 (PST), Dan wrote in
:

Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
think I'd like to fly a lot. However, it is expensive so it would be
better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.

If your motivation is revenue generation, consider real estate
investment. If you start buying foreclosures, and put enough equity
in them so that the rental income makes the mortgage payment, you will
be able to leverage your equity investment's appreciation by something
like 80%. Think about it. In twenty years, you'll have more money
than you'll know what to do with, and owning some acreage with a
private airstrip, hangar, and an airplane will be affordable for you.
My 2¢

On Feb 20, 2:40*pm, Larry Dighera wrote:

If your motivation is revenue generation, consider real estate
investment. *If you start buying foreclosures, and put enough equity
in them so that the rental income makes the mortgage payment, you will
be able to leverage your equity investment's appreciation by something
like 80%. *Think about it. *In twenty years, you'll have more money
than you'll know what to do with, and owning some acreage with a
private airstrip, hangar, and an airplane will be affordable for you.
* My 2¢

By the time you add property taxes, insurance, the time spent dealing
with tenants, etc. could you really beat out other investments such as
stocks and other equities?

The closest I've come to real-estate so far are REITs. Has the method
you described above worked for you? What is your average annual rate
of return?

On Feb 20, 1:40*pm, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:37:49 -0800 (PST), Dan wrote in
:

Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
think I'd like to fly a lot. *However, it is expensive so it would be
better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.

If your motivation is revenue generation, consider real estate
investment. *If you start buying foreclosures, and put enough equity
in them so that the rental income makes the mortgage payment, you will
be able to leverage your equity investment's appreciation by something
like 80%. *

What about your equity? Doesn't it deserve a return too? You could put
it in eTrade savings account and get 4% FDIC insured so why put it
into real-estate hoping to just get your payment out of it??

-Robert

On Feb 20, 3:46*pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:


What about your equity? Doesn't it deserve a return too? You could put
it in eTrade savings account and get 4% FDIC insured so why put it
into real-estate hoping to just get your payment out of it??

-Robert

Here's my recommendation - buy Garmin (GRMN). It's on "sale" right
now. Forward PE = 14 with a huge growth rate.

We all know that Garmin dominates the aviation GPS and avionics
market, but their automotive products are top notch as well.

--Dan

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:46:03 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote in
:

On Feb 20, 1:40*pm, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:37:49 -0800 (PST), Dan wrote in
:

Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
think I'd like to fly a lot. *However, it is expensive so it would be
better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.

If your motivation is revenue generation, consider real estate
investment. *If you start buying foreclosures, and put enough equity
in them so that the rental income makes the mortgage payment, you will
be able to leverage your equity investment's appreciation by something
like 80%. *

What about your equity? Doesn't it deserve a return too?

Huh? That's the whole point.

Let's use $100,000 as the home price. If the real estate appreciates
at 10% annually, with a 20% down payment (the equity), you are able to
realize a gain of, not 10% of $20,000 ($2,000), but 10% of $100,000
($10,000) annually.

You could put
it in eTrade savings account and get 4% FDIC insured so why put it
into real-estate hoping to just get your payment out of it??

For the appreciation in property value. The rent payment just covers
your costs (approximately) over the life of the investment.

Real estate goes up and down, but over the long run, .... With the
rate of population growth worldwide, I don't see how it can miss. The
only true downside is the lack of liquidity, but that's not really an
issue for retirement income.

Dan wrote in news:8e803d10-c44e-44da-bf45-
:

On Feb 20, 5:26*am, Denny wrote:

Three years ago my mechanic/fbo put a ton of money into an Aztec,
hired a pilot, hired a firm to create the books, had the FAA in on 3
different trips inspecting the plane, the office, the books, taking
the pilot for a check ride, yadda, yadda... Then once approved to
operate 135 he began bidding for jobs... He found that the competition
was playing hardball, even running a Learjet on jobs for less than he
was willing to do with the Aztec, they often bid jobs for barely more
than their fuel costs apparently losing money to establish rapport
with the shipper... The competitors took jobs where they would be
deadheading back after the run and still underbid him, plus they beat
him to the punch by taking the run a half day sooner because he was
still trying to find cargo for both directions... *In the end he went
belly up...

If you are going to succeed you will do most of the flying yourself,
you will need to be an A&P to hold your maintenance costs down, you
will be ready to live out of the airplane yes, sleep in it for a
week at a time as you hopscotch across the country taking cargo from a
to b, then deadheading to c for a run to d, and so on, you will likely
have to get by with only insurance for for PL & PD and take the chance
you won't destroy the plane which means your family will have to
front the money for the plane instead of a bank loan ...
Other than that, it should be a piece of cake!

denny

Wow! That sounds like quite a nightmare. Apparently aviation and
successful entrepreneurialism do NOT go hand in hand. You paint a
picture so bleak (and it might well be true) that it makes me wonder
why anyone goes into aviation.

I have a good paying job now, but I'd like to do something more fun
when I get to a point in my life I can work and not be concerned with
making top dollar (i.e. 10-20 years out). I'm trying to plan out how
I might prepare for doing something in aviation.

Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
think I'd like to fly a lot. However, it is expensive so it would be
better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.
I'm not sure the CFI route is for me. I prefer cross country flights
with a definate destination.

--Dan



I read several years ago that the combined record of all airlines since day
one of commercial aviation shows a net loss. As they say the only way to
become a millionaire in aviation is to start with a few billion.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)