New Airplanes in WWI (ISOT)

Lets suppose you get to give a single new airplane design and a single prototype
to a participant of World War One. You can offer the Austro-Hungarians the
design for a B-52 if you wish. However, that might prove a manufacturing
challenge to them (and one can only wonder about their supply of jet fuel).

Your goal is to change history. You can hope for a German victory or just that the
Allies win faster. It's up to you.

So, what design do you offer, remembering that this design must be manufactured, fueled,
and armed by the natives?

My first guess, a Fairey Swordfish in 1914 should be buildable and dominate the
skies. The speed, range and bombload would be simply unknown at the time. With a
thousand mile range and a 1,600 lb bomb it would be a great strategic bomber. It
should hold its own even in 1918 though I would not expect the war to last so long.
Again, it's no F-16 but it should be buildable.

Or for a more advanced plane how about a Grumman F-4 without the turbocharger.
I'm not sure the industry of the time was able to build large complex machines of sheet
aluminum, but if so this is a nice plane for world war one.

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote in message
...
Lets suppose you get to give a single new airplane design and a single
prototype
to a participant of World War One. You can offer the Austro-Hungarians
the
design for a B-52 if you wish. However, that might prove a manufacturing
challenge to them (and one can only wonder about their supply of jet
fuel).

Your goal is to change history. You can hope for a German victory or just
that the
Allies win faster. It's up to you.

snip

I'm having trouble seeing any aircraft that the combatants of the time could
build significantly changing the end results.

--
Multiversal Mercenaries. You name it, we kill it. Any time, any reality.

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote in message
...
Lets suppose you get to give a single new airplane design and a single
prototype
to a participant of World War One. You can offer the Austro-Hungarians
the
design for a B-52 if you wish. However, that might prove a manufacturing
challenge to them (and one can only wonder about their supply of jet
fuel).

Your goal is to change history. You can hope for a German victory or just
that the
Allies win faster. It's up to you.

So, what design do you offer, remembering that this design must be
manufactured, fueled,
and armed by the natives?

My first guess, a Fairey Swordfish in 1914 should be buildable and
dominate the
skies. The speed, range and bombload would be simply unknown at the time.
With a
thousand mile range and a 1,600 lb bomb it would be a great strategic
bomber. It
should hold its own even in 1918 though I would not expect the war to last
so long.
Again, it's no F-16 but it should be buildable.


Hardly, the Swordfish was catchable by most late WW1
fighters and didng have much more disposable load
than a Vimy

Or for a more advanced plane how about a Grumman F-4 without the
turbocharger.
I'm not sure the industry of the time was able to build large complex
machines of sheet
aluminum, but if so this is a nice plane for world war one.



The real challenge is to produce something that
can be built with the technology of the day.

The Hurricane has an airframe that would be
familiar to any WW1 mechanic, especially if
you stick to the fabric covered Mk1

The engine is the real problem, probably something like
the 1930's Hawker Hart would be the best option

Keith




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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...

My first guess, a Fairey Swordfish in 1914 should be buildable and
dominate the
skies. The speed, range and bombload would be simply unknown at the time.
With a
thousand mile range and a 1,600 lb bomb it would be a great strategic
bomber. It
should hold its own even in 1918 though I would not expect the war to last
so long.
Again, it's no F-16 but it should be buildable.


Hardly, the Swordfish was catchable by most late WW1
fighters and didng have much more disposable load
than a Vimy

I said a Swordfish in *1914*, which is beyond unbeatable by the planes of
1914.

I don't even think it's catchable by fighters of 1918. A Spad XIII has a top speed of
135 mph, an Fokker D. VII has a top speed of 120 mph, and a Swordfish has
a top speed of 138 mph. Remember, a fighter has to be significantly faster than
the bomber to catch it and make repeated passes at it.

http://www.budiansky.com/planes.html#wI

Charles Talleyrand wrote:

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...

My first guess, a Fairey Swordfish in 1914 should be buildable and
dominate the
skies. The speed, range and bombload would be simply unknown at the time.
With a
thousand mile range and a 1,600 lb bomb it would be a great strategic
bomber. It
should hold its own even in 1918 though I would not expect the war to last
so long.
Again, it's no F-16 but it should be buildable.


Hardly, the Swordfish was catchable by most late WW1
fighters and didng have much more disposable load
than a Vimy

I said a Swordfish in *1914*, which is beyond unbeatable by the planes of
1914.

I don't even think it's catchable by fighters of 1918. A Spad XIII has a top speed of
135 mph, an Fokker D. VII has a top speed of 120 mph, and a Swordfish has
a top speed of 138 mph. Remember, a fighter has to be significantly faster than
the bomber to catch it and make repeated passes at it.

A Swordfish may be able to do that clean, but it cruises at 85-90 kts loaded, and most all of the inline
engine fighters of 1918 are faster than it, even ignoring that they will considerably outclimb it and
will most likely be making diving attacks. Its bombload is 1,500 lb, no big deal for 1918 if you look
at multi-engined bombers, and its range isn't very exciting either -- you are apparently assuming that
it can achieve its maximum range while flying at maximum speed and carrying its maximum load, and that
isn't the case for any a/c. Here's the Swordfish II range with a 1,610 lb. Mk. XII torp and the max.
fuel (143 Imp. Gal.) it can carry with that load: 450nm @ 90 knots; combat radius would be around 1/3rd
- 2/5ths of that.

In 1914 it would very difficult to catch, but about the only way it might change the war significantly
would be if it was used as a torpedo bomber carrying 18" full-size torps in a mass sneak attack on the
German (and/or Austro-Hungarian) fleets in harbor. Even then it would have to operate from land,
because no one had a carrier during the war with sufficient deck run and speed for it to take off from
fully loaded, barring very high (and consequently rare) winds. Loaded with a torp and 143 gallons of
fuel, a Swordfish II required a 540 ft. deck run with 20 kts. WoD (Wind over Deck), and 345 ft. with 30
kts. WoD.

In late 1918 (i.e. after the end of the war) HMS Argus would have been able to launch them given
sufficent natural wind (550 ft. flight deck, 20 kt. speed), but couldn't have spotted more than a half
dozen or so at a time. HMS Furious was faster, but had a much shorter takeoff deck at the time, only
228 feet (before her conversion to a full carrier), and her a/c capacity was limited, so any kind of
carrier-launched mass attack during 1914-1918 was out of the question. But that assumes that sinking a
fair number of one of the Central Powers fleets in harbor would have significantly changed the war in
the allies favor, and that seems a bit questionable.

Guy

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote in message ...
Lets suppose you get to give a single new airplane design and a single prototype
to a participant of World War One. You can offer the Austro-Hungarians the
design for a B-52 if you wish. However, that might prove a manufacturing
challenge to them (and one can only wonder about their supply of jet fuel).

Your goal is to change history. You can hope for a German victory or just that the
Allies win faster. It's up to you.

So, what design do you offer, remembering that this design must be manufactured, fueled,
and armed by the natives?

My first guess, a Fairey Swordfish in 1914 should be buildable and dominate the
skies. The speed, range and bombload would be simply unknown at the time. With a
thousand mile range and a 1,600 lb bomb it would be a great strategic bomber. It
should hold its own even in 1918 though I would not expect the war to last so long.
Again, it's no F-16 but it should be buildable.

Or for a more advanced plane how about a Grumman F-4 without the turbocharger.
I'm not sure the industry of the time was able to build large complex machines of sheet
aluminum, but if so this is a nice plane for world war one.

Perhaps not the airplanes but their armament, a machine gun based on
known Gatling technology but significantly lighter in weight. The
Brits used incindiary rockets on the Zeppelins, would napalm on the
trenches be a significant addition?

"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message
om...


Perhaps not the airplanes but their armament, a machine gun based on
known Gatling technology but significantly lighter in weight.

The problem would synchronising the gun with the engine.
Vickers and Lewis guns were perfectly adequate

The
Brits used incindiary rockets on the Zeppelins, would napalm on the
trenches be a significant addition?

Not really , they dropped poison gas and phsophorus
bombs as it was.

Keith

Keith Willshaw wrote:
"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message
om...
The
Brits used incindiary rockets on the Zeppelins, would napalm on the
trenches be a significant addition?

Not really , they dropped poison gas and phsophorus
bombs as it was.

And the Germans certainly had flamethrowers by the end of the war.


--
Nik Simpson

In article , "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:

"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message
om...


Perhaps not the airplanes but their armament, a machine gun based on
known Gatling technology but significantly lighter in weight.

The problem would synchronising the gun with the engine.
Vickers and Lewis guns were perfectly adequate

The
Brits used incindiary rockets on the Zeppelins, would napalm on the
trenches be a significant addition?

Not really , they dropped poison gas and phsophorus
bombs as it was.


Cluster munitions would be even more effective, although the timing
would be a challenge.

"Howard Berkowitz" wrote in message
...


Not really , they dropped poison gas and phsophorus
bombs as it was.


Cluster munitions would be even more effective, although the timing
would be a challenge.

The typical bomb used for anti personnel use was the 25lb
cooper bomb which was a fragmentation weapon,essentially
a large hand grenade. They also dropped flechettes.

Keith




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