Armed forces of an independent Scotland

There's recently been speculation in the media that UK defence cuts
ewill result in some or all of Scotland's infantry regiments being
disbanded[1]. If Scotland became an independent state, what
sort of armed forces should it have -- if you were appointed
Scottish minister of defence, what would you do?


[1] see for example:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3310763.stm,
http://scotlandtoday.scottishtv.co.uk/content/default.asp?page=s1_1_1&newsid=4282


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"phil hunt" wrote in message
rg...
There's recently been speculation in the media that UK defence cuts
ewill result in some or all of Scotland's infantry regiments being
disbanded[1]. If Scotland became an independent state, what
sort of armed forces should it have -- if you were appointed
Scottish minister of defence, what would you do?


[1] see for example:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3310763.stm,

http://scotlandtoday.scottishtv.co.u...e=s1_1_1&newsi
d=4282


--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)


Frae Auld bob Peffers:
Well Denmark does very well as they are. Anyway Scotland would be entitled
to her share of the UK armed forces, (or if not we could hang on to ALL the
nukes as hostages). If they don't give us our proper share the Indians,
Pakistanis, Israelis or even the Palestinians may pay well for them. Even
the Koreas have nuclear ambitions.

Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
E-Mail:-
(Tak oot the wee dug tae send e-mail).


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"Robert Peffers" wrote in message
...

"phil hunt" wrote in message
rg...
There's recently been speculation in the media that UK defence cuts
ewill result in some or all of Scotland's infantry regiments being
disbanded[1]. If Scotland became an independent state, what
sort of armed forces should it have -- if you were appointed
Scottish minister of defence, what would you do?


[1] see for example:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3310763.stm,


http://scotlandtoday.scottishtv.co.u...e=s1_1_1&newsi
d=4282


--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)


Frae Auld bob Peffers:
Well Denmark does very well as they are. Anyway Scotland would be entitled
to her share of the UK armed forces, (or if not we could hang on to ALL
the
nukes as hostages). If they don't give us our proper share the Indians,
Pakistanis, Israelis or even the Palestinians may pay well for them. Even
the Koreas have nuclear ambitions.

Explain this bit, please.

'But senior civil servants say the current level of poor Army recruiting and
retention cannot go on. Already, Scottish regiments rely on hundreds of
Fijian soldiers to bolster the ranks, at a time when commitments to Iraq and
Afghanistan are mounting.'

"BfB" wrote in message ...

"Robert Peffers" wrote in message
...

"phil hunt" wrote in message
rg...
There's recently been speculation in the media that UK defence cuts
ewill result in some or all of Scotland's infantry regiments being
disbanded[1]. If Scotland became an independent state, what
sort of armed forces should it have -- if you were appointed
Scottish minister of defence, what would you do?


[1] see for example:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3310763.stm,



http://scotlandtoday.scottishtv.co.u...e=s1_1_1&newsi
d=4282


--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)


Frae Auld bob Peffers:
Well Denmark does very well as they are. Anyway Scotland would be
entitled
to her share of the UK armed forces, (or if not we could hang on to ALL
the
nukes as hostages). If they don't give us our proper share the Indians,
Pakistanis, Israelis or even the Palestinians may pay well for them.
Even
the Koreas have nuclear ambitions.

It seems fairly clear to me. Her Majesty will still remain Queen of Scots
and thus Her Majesty's Forces will also be partly Scotland's. Union of the
Crowns joined the Countries under one monarch, It took another 04 years
before the Act of Union joined the Parliaments but each country remained a
country. That is a precident for a monarch to be monarch of two independent
countries. Is that clear enough? So, that being the case, and the fact that
Scottish taxpayers paid for a share of all the United Kingdom Of Great
Britain and Nothern Ireland's forces we are well entitled to our fair share
of everything. Is that clear enough?.

Now, if the rest of Great Britain and Nothern Ireland were to refuse to give
Scotland her fair share of the armed forces, we would just have to hang on
to what was already in Scotland and that would include almost the entire
nuclear armaments of the former union. That must be clear enough? Scotland
has shown in countless surveys she has no more wish to have nuclear arm in
Scotland than the English wish them in England, why else did they choose to
send most of them to Scotland and about as far away from London as they
could get. Ergo, Scotland does not want them. We would thus be well within
our rights to sell them to the highest bidder to get enough money to provide
a conventional force for Scotland's defence. After all, in that situation,
Scotland would have thus been cheated by the remaining part of the UK. Why
then would we be wish to be loyal to them? That is not complicated.

If trust and loyalty are to be retained then it will be because we deal
with each other as friends with many common interests. High among those
common interests are the defence of all the countries in Great Britain. If
one side cheats the other then that kind of relationship dies and devil take
the hindmost. Just why do so many folk think everything belongs to England?
We joind together by a treaty. Scotland is a legal partner and not a
defeated and conquered enemy. We have legal rights to our share of joint
assets.

'But senior civil servants say the current level of poor Army recruiting
and
retention cannot go on. Already, Scottish regiments rely on hundreds of
Fijian soldiers to bolster the ranks, at a time when commitments to Iraq
and
Afghanistan are mounting.'



--

Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
E-Mail:-
(Tak oot the wee dug tae send e-mail).


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In message , Robert Peffers
writes
Frae Auld bob Peffers:
Well Denmark does very well as they are. Anyway Scotland would be entitled
to her share of the UK armed forces,

Sure, but it means you get to pay for them (and most of the support and
TacDev is way down south, meaning you need to pay again to duplicate it
if it's a hostile split). Balkanisation isn't usually a good idea (I
mean, _look_ at the Balkans - would _you_ want to live there?)

(or if not we could hang on to ALL the
nukes as hostages). If they don't give us our proper share the Indians,
Pakistanis, Israelis or even the Palestinians may pay well for them. Even
the Koreas have nuclear ambitions.

Careful there - the US might remember the Auld Alliance and decide that
Scotland is close enough to France to become part of the Axis of Evil.
Trying to auction nuclear warheads might get some unwelcome gatecrashers
(besides, most of the customers are short on manners, and might decide
that it was easier to kill other bidders than match their price, then
the auctioneer gets hit in the crossfire, and where's your profit then?)

Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).

Fife, is it? My mother's from Aberdeen and my father from Perth, though
I was born just south of the Tyne.

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message , Robert Peffers
writes
Frae Auld bob Peffers:
Well Denmark does very well as they are. Anyway Scotland would be
entitled
to her share of the UK armed forces,

Sure, but it means you get to pay for them (and most of the support and
TacDev is way down south, meaning you need to pay again to duplicate it
if it's a hostile split). Balkanisation isn't usually a good idea (I
mean, _look_ at the Balkans - would _you_ want to live there?)

What do you meam by all the support is down there? We have the Clyde
Submarine base and Rosyth Dockyard for navy and Lossie RAF and so on. If a
split comes about we are entitled to a FAIR share. If we don't get it we are
entitled to impound everything in Scotland.
Also, what do you mean we would have to pay for it? We have paid our share
of it all along.
Surely you do not think only the English pay for defence?


(or if not we could hang on to ALL the
nukes as hostages). If they don't give us our proper share the Indians,
Pakistanis, Israelis or even the Palestinians may pay well for them. Even
the Koreas have nuclear ambitions.

Careful there - the US might remember the Auld Alliance and decide that
Scotland is close enough to France to become part of the Axis of Evil.
Trying to auction nuclear warheads might get some unwelcome gatecrashers
(besides, most of the customers are short on manners, and might decide
that it was easier to kill other bidders than match their price, then
the auctioneer gets hit in the crossfire, and where's your profit then?)

You have to be kidding - I don't see coward Bushy invading the countries
that actually HAVE nukes. Do you? The situation you mention is that Scotland
did not get her fair share and had impounded all the UK's nukes and the
means to deliver them. Bushy is stupid but not that stupid.
snip

Fife, is it? My mother's from Aberdeen and my father from Perth, though
I was born just south of the Tyne.
Fife only since 1952 but I was born in the Lothians.
I worked all my working life with the MOD in the defence field.
--

Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
E-Mail:-
(Tak oot the wee dug tae send e-mail).


---
Aa ootgannin screivings maun hae nae wee beasties wi thaim..
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In message , Robert Peffers
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
Sure, but it means you get to pay for them (and most of the support and
TacDev is way down south, meaning you need to pay again to duplicate it
if it's a hostile split). Balkanisation isn't usually a good idea (I
mean, _look_ at the Balkans - would _you_ want to live there?)

What do you meam by all the support is down there? We have the Clyde
Submarine base and Rosyth Dockyard for navy

Need tactics? The Maritime Warfare Centre is in Portsdown, on the south
coast. Want to maintain the nuclear warheads? Aldermaston wasn't in
Scotland last time I looked. How about the torpedoes for self-defence?
Also southern UK. Countermeasures? Ultra Electronics, also based south
of the border.

and Lossie RAF and so on.

Spare parts come from Warton, which is - guess where? Armaments are BAE
and MBDA, which again aren't Scotland-based.

If a
split comes about we are entitled to a FAIR share.

Sure, but just remember there's more to a military than counting tanks
(aircraft, ships, whatever)

Also, what do you mean we would have to pay for it? We have paid our share
of it all along.

Certainly - but how do you propose to equitably divide the staff and
facilities of HMS Collingwood? And who pays for moving your share north?

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message , Robert Peffers
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
Sure, but it means you get to pay for them (and most of the support and
TacDev is way down south, meaning you need to pay again to duplicate it
if it's a hostile split). Balkanisation isn't usually a good idea (I
mean, _look_ at the Balkans - would _you_ want to live there?)

What do you meam by all the support is down there? We have the Clyde
Submarine base and Rosyth Dockyard for navy

Need tactics? The Maritime Warfare Centre is in Portsdown, on the south
coast. Want to maintain the nuclear warheads? Aldermaston wasn't in
Scotland last time I looked. How about the torpedoes for self-defence?
Also southern UK. Countermeasures? Ultra Electronics, also based south
of the border.

Ever heard of Pitreivie?

and Lossie RAF and so on.

Spare parts come from Warton, which is - guess where? Armaments are BAE
and MBDA, which again aren't Scotland-based.
Ever heard of Almondale. BTW: There are armament depots very close to Rosyth
and the Clyde bases. Foreby which what would stop an independent Scotland
leasing the the former UK and then USA Gairloch base to say, an independent
India, Pakistan, Iraq, North or South Korea, Palistine or any other
potential enemy of England?

Who cares about spares anyway. Did you really miss the point by such a wide
margin?
That kind of scenario would only happen if England attempted to hold on to
everything and Scotland had to impound what was in Scotland. Thus England
would be creating an enemy from a friend. Now even England would not be so
very stupid, (would she). What would any country want to be creating an
enemy on her own front step? That would be crazy. Any tin pot nation in the
World could attake England and have a ready made treaty with the Scots just
begging to be signed. Not even England is that stupid. Just imagine trying
to stop terrorist activity from Ireland and Scotland while attemting to
fight of some enemy from the Far or Middle East at the same trime. There is
only one logical defence policy for an independent England and Scotland - a
joint treaty to defend each other.

If a
split comes about we are entitled to a FAIR share.

Sure, but just remember there's more to a military than counting tanks
(aircraft, ships, whatever).

I seem to know just a little more about that subject than you seem to do.
You it is seeing England and Scotland as enemies. That would be sheer
madness. considering modern warfare. Why, even those traditional old enemies
France, Germany, Holland, Belgium and so on are now banding together. What
with the rise of the USA and her protectionist and saber rattling designs on
World domination if Europe does not band together then the next step on a
global scene will see the middle and far east, the former USSR and sundry
other nations being the only possible power bloc to be able to stand against
them. Had you not noticed the change in how Empires are now controlled? No
more the gun boat up the river, no more the expeditionary force. Now it is
the Multi-national company and the value of their shares. What now is, "An
American Company", and just who holds shares in it?

Also, what do you mean we would have to pay for it? We have paid our
share
of it all along.

Certainly - but how do you propose to equitably divide the staff and
facilities of HMS Collingwood? And who pays for moving your share north?

The same ones who paid for it becoming centralised there in the first place.
You just have to purge your brain from this is our English this that or the
other. Are you really trying to tell someone who spent a major part of his
life on courses at Collingwood that every member of the staff were English?
Are you seriously attempting to say all the Jolly Jacks squaddies and fly
guys are English? Not so long ago the main Naval Artificers Training was
done at HMS Cochrane and the nearby Naval Shore Base. Rosyth Dockyard also
were the ones who first refitted the nuclear submarines and we were the ones
who developed the methods used. Last I heard Devonport had not yet quite
made it as nearly so efficient as we did it at Rosyth.

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

Furthermore many of the guys who build the Royal Navy ships are Scots and
they are not, like myself, dead yet.
--

Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
E-Mail:-
(Tak oot the wee dug tae send e-mail).


---
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On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:46:46 +0100, Paul J. Adam wrote:

Need tactics? The Maritime Warfare Centre is in Portsdown, on the south
coast. Want to maintain the nuclear warheads? Aldermaston wasn't in
Scotland last time I looked. How about the torpedoes for self-defence?
Also southern UK. Countermeasures? Ultra Electronics, also based south
of the border.

I'm sure these establishments would be happy to sell their services
for a fee. If not -- lots of other places make torpedos etc.

Spare parts come from Warton, which is - guess where? Armaments are BAE
and MBDA, which again aren't Scotland-based.

Though they do have establishments in Scotland (BAE does, I'm not
sure about MBDA). In any case, arms manufacturers are hardly likely
to refuse to sell arms.


--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:03:13 +0100, Robert Peffers wrote:
Careful there - the US might remember the Auld Alliance and decide that
Scotland is close enough to France to become part of the Axis of Evil.
Trying to auction nuclear warheads might get some unwelcome gatecrashers
(besides, most of the customers are short on manners, and might decide
that it was easier to kill other bidders than match their price, then
the auctioneer gets hit in the crossfire, and where's your profit then?)

You have to be kidding - I don't see coward Bushy invading the countries
that actually HAVE nukes.

Nor do I. Though the idea that the USA would invade a western,
European democracy is ludicrous anyway.

The situation you mention is that Scotland
did not get her fair share and had impounded all the UK's nukes and the
means to deliver them. Bushy is stupid but not that stupid.

The UK has 200-400 nukes so Scotland's share would be about 20-40.
Under the terms of the Vienna convention, Scotland would be a
nuclear weapon state as far as the Non Proliferation Treaty was
concerned.

--
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people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)