Radio talk in the UK

Hi

I am training for my PPL in the UK at Liverpool John Lennon Airport, I have
passed the 55 hour mark which includes my Qualifying X-Country. Not long to
go now.... anyway, back to the subject of my posting.
At Liverpool, we do our power checks on the GA Apron and not at the holding
point, after the power checks we check the ATIS then request taxi.

I have been taught by my instructor(s) to make the call something like this:

G-ABCD: Liverpool Tower, this is G-ABCD at Kilo with information Alpha QNH
1234, QFE 1234 request Taxi

To which the tower will reply confirming the AN/QFE and give taxi
instructions.

However,
When re-entering the Liverpool zone (or any other FIR), the first call is
usually (Station, callsign)
i.e.
G-ABCD: Liverpool Approach, this is G-ABCD
Approach: G-ABCD, Pass your message
etc. etc. etc.

I was told this was to just 'Introduce Yourself' first to ensure the
controller is ready to accept your message,

My question is:

Why not do the same when on the Apron?
i.e.
G-ABCD: Liverpool Tower, this is G-ABCD
Tower: G-ABCD, Pass your message
G-ABCD: G-ABCD is at Kilo with information Alpha AN 1234, QFE 1234 request
Taxi

Surely it would be better to 'just introduce' yourself to the Tower before
babbling for 10 seconds only to be told by the Tower to 'Stand By' as he is
about to vector a 737 in for an approach.

I hate it (especially earlier in my training) when I would make a rushed
tongue tied call to the Tower only to be either told to Stand By or realise
I was talking over someone else.

Any comments or advice?

"karel adams" wrote in message
...

"Paul" schreef in bericht
...
Hi

I am training for my PPL in the UK at Liverpool John Lennon Airport, I
have
passed the 55 hour mark which includes my Qualifying X-Country. Not
long to
go now.... anyway, back to the subject of my posting.
At Liverpool, we do our power checks on the GA Apron and not at the
holding
point, after the power checks we check the ATIS then request taxi.

I have been taught by my instructor(s) to make the call something like
this:

G-ABCD: Liverpool Tower, this is G-ABCD at Kilo with information Alpha
QNH
1234, QFE 1234 request Taxi

even stranger than the rest of your story,
it seems quite needless to read back both QNH and QFE
surely the controller is aware of his (lack of) elevation?

KA (continental PPL student)


I don't know about Liverpool but at Exeter you have to give then the ATIS
information identifier with the QNH on first contact.

I suppose it helps confirm that you have understood the ATIS.

Paul wrote:
Hi

I am training for my PPL in the UK at Liverpool John Lennon Airport, I have
passed the 55 hour mark which includes my Qualifying X-Country. Not long to
go now.... anyway, back to the subject of my posting.
At Liverpool, we do our power checks on the GA Apron and not at the holding
point, after the power checks we check the ATIS then request taxi.

I have been taught by my instructor(s) to make the call something like this:

G-ABCD: Liverpool Tower, this is G-ABCD at Kilo with information Alpha QNH
1234, QFE 1234 request Taxi

To which the tower will reply confirming the AN/QFE and give taxi
instructions.

However,
When re-entering the Liverpool zone (or any other FIR), the first call is
usually (Station, callsign)
i.e.
G-ABCD: Liverpool Approach, this is G-ABCD
Approach: G-ABCD, Pass your message
etc. etc. etc.

I was told this was to just 'Introduce Yourself' first to ensure the
controller is ready to accept your message,

My question is:

Why not do the same when on the Apron?
i.e.
G-ABCD: Liverpool Tower, this is G-ABCD
Tower: G-ABCD, Pass your message
G-ABCD: G-ABCD is at Kilo with information Alpha AN 1234, QFE 1234 request
Taxi

Surely it would be better to 'just introduce' yourself to the Tower before
babbling for 10 seconds only to be told by the Tower to 'Stand By' as he is
about to vector a 737 in for an approach.

I hate it (especially earlier in my training) when I would make a rushed
tongue tied call to the Tower only to be either told to Stand By or realise
I was talking over someone else.

Any comments or advice?

My first advice is - do what your instructor tells you :-)

Seriously, aside from giving you the necessary skills, the instructor is
also teaching you how to pass the forthcoming tests, so if that's how
it's done, that's how it's done.

But you're right - it does seem inconsistent. I've always assumed that
the first, brief call to a tower on approaching their airspace was to
wake up the controller and give him time to find a pencil. I've lost
count of the number of times this has happened:

Me: Sleepy Tower, F-GACD.
[slight pause]
Tower: Ugh ... aircraft calling Sleepy Tower, say again callsign.

Of course, I fly in France and most of the towers around here aren't
that busy!

As already explained by Jim, the readback of pressure is mandatory, you'll
have a violation filed against you if you dont do ti, similarly all
clearances, but thats maybe outside your area of ops, so to speak.

When you fisrt call up, LISTEN first. That way you'll get to hear whats
going on and you WON'T talk over someone else except by chance. Like Jim I
use r/t all day at work (flying) and the occurrences of being "blocked" are
rare. If you LISTEN.

Also, if you lisrten you can glean a lot of information and so prevent the
tower having to repeat.

As for being tongue tied, well, just LISTEN first to get your ear in, the if
you have to, write down what you re going to say, especially pressures, nd
other NUMBERS that often confuse pilots (of all levels). Write down what he
tells you so your readback is clear and concise. Trust me, even full time
jet jockeys write stuff down...how those ATC guys expect me to remember a
speed, a heading, a pressure, a flight level AND a hosties phone number
beats me!

D

"Paul" wrote in message
...
I am training for my PPL in the UK at Liverpool John Lennon Airport, I
have
passed the 55 hour mark which includes my Qualifying X-Country. Not long
to
go now.... anyway, back to the subject of my posting.
I have been taught by my instructor(s) to make the call something like
this:
G-ABCD: Liverpool Tower, this is G-ABCD at Kilo with information Alpha QNH
1234, QFE 1234 request Taxi ... However,
When re-entering the Liverpool zone (or any other FIR), the first call is
usually (Station, callsign)
i.e. G-ABCD: Liverpool Approach, this is G-ABCD
Approach: G-ABCD, Pass your message

I find that the easiest way to proceed, regardless of whether you're on the
apron or rejoining the, is to listen for a quiet spot and then simply call
"Liverpool Tower, G-ABCD" and wait to be asked to pass your message. There's
nothing worse (and more pointless) than spouting a load of extra stuff only
to find out that you hit the "transmit" button at the same time as someone
else, so I find it best to keep it short until you know he's listening to
you. Remember, of course, that you should always use your full callsign
until the controller uses an abbreviated version, e.g. G-CD; it's not all
that often that you come across another G-CD or whatever, and so nine times
out of ten you end up abbreviating, but it's a good thing to remember in
case, like me, the first time you have to start using the entire callsign is
your final skill test!

Couple of extra points, though.

First, when I've just started up, I do tend to append the words "radio check
please" to my first greeting to the tower, just to get an idea of whether
the radio's in shape (okay, it's not a brilliant measure, but if I'm sat
outside my normal hangar I expect to hear "readability five", and if he says
"readability one" it flags a potential issue). At Norwich they're pretty
good and they give you the readability even if you don't bother asking, but
at some places you need to ask.

Secondly, one the controller had acknowledged my existence, I wouldn't
bother reading both the QNH and the QFE. Generally the ATIS gives the QNH,
and so I'd read that out; if I was staying in the circuit (which he'd know
because I told him when I booked out) he would inform me of the current QFE,
which I would acknowledge on receipt, and if he didn't tell me then I'd ask
him.

Dave

"david" wrote in message
...
As already explained by Jim, the readback of pressure is mandatory, you'll
have a violation filed against you if you dont do ti, similarly all
clearances, but thats maybe outside your area of ops, so to speak.

I suspect that it's only in rare cases that you actually get a violation
filed, though the option is there for the controller if he or she so wishes.
However, particularly when a controller is quite busy, he or she will be
annoyed with you, and I've heard some very scathing comments from
controllers to people who've not read back the necessary bits.

Incidentally, do also try not to read back the stuff you don't have to read
back, particularly if you're in a busy area (e.g. Norwich at 11:30 on a
summer Saturday), as it does get in the way if every student in the sky is
telling the controller what the wind's doing.

To continue on the first point, though: do practise your RT, know what
you're doing and what your intentions are, and try to sound professional,
because it does make a difference to the controller's attitude to you. If
you sound uncertain as you call downwind, he'll send you miles away and put
you behind the gaggle of stuff on 15-mile final; if you're crisp and you
know what your next move is, you often find yourself hearing "Call on
finals, number one".

I also find being polite works wonders. For instance, even if it's a nice
day, I like to try the occasional holding pattern and/or ILS or NDB
approach, just in case I need them on a crappy day sometime. I can remember
at least one instance when just before I rejoined my local airport, a
shirty-sounding instructor in an aircraft a couple of minutes closer to the
field than me requested, and was bluntly denied, an ILS approach; I
pretended not to have heard, called up for a rejoin, said something like
"Good afternoon sir, G-XXXX overhead X, routing X, maintaining two thousand
feet; request radar vectors for ILS approach if convenient to yourself", and
was immediately granted my vectored approach.

D.

"David Cartwright" wrote in message
...
try to sound professional,
because it does make a difference to the controller's attitude to you. If
you sound uncertain as you call downwind, he'll send you miles away and
put
you behind the gaggle of stuff on 15-mile final; if you're crisp and you
know what your next move is, you often find yourself hearing "Call on
finals, number one".

I have the opposite problem. At 300 hours and with my own plane,
I sound fairly confident over the RT. However if I haven't flown
for 2 or 3 weeks, my piloting skills may not be up to making that
curved approach to the threshold in a crosswind while doing my
checks and then getting off the runway at the first exit to let the next
plane land!

Paul

After 16 years of flying across UK and Europe as a hobby, I completed my
Night Rating on thursday at London Luton. The radio calls you do there are
the same as at Luton, with the exception that we have tower and ground
frequencies.

The power checks are done at the best place for you that does not
inconvenience the heavies that pay for the upkeep of the airport. With
regard to the radio calls, airports with significant volumes of IFR traffic
need a common system, with checks and balances to ensure everyone is singing
from the same hymnsheet. Stick with it, it will stand you in good stead.
Better to learn at learn that level, than to learn at a grass strip and be
frightened of going near a control zone.

"Paul" wrote in message
...
Hi

I am training for my PPL in the UK at Liverpool John Lennon Airport, I
have
passed the 55 hour mark which includes my Qualifying X-Country. Not long
to
go now.... anyway, back to the subject of my posting.
At Liverpool, we do our power checks on the GA Apron and not at the
holding
point, after the power checks we check the ATIS then request taxi.

I have been taught by my instructor(s) to make the call something like
this:

G-ABCD: Liverpool Tower, this is G-ABCD at Kilo with information Alpha QNH
1234, QFE 1234 request Taxi

To which the tower will reply confirming the AN/QFE and give taxi
instructions.

However,
When re-entering the Liverpool zone (or any other FIR), the first call is
usually (Station, callsign)
i.e.
G-ABCD: Liverpool Approach, this is G-ABCD
Approach: G-ABCD, Pass your message
etc. etc. etc.

I was told this was to just 'Introduce Yourself' first to ensure the
controller is ready to accept your message,

My question is:

Why not do the same when on the Apron?
i.e.
G-ABCD: Liverpool Tower, this is G-ABCD
Tower: G-ABCD, Pass your message
G-ABCD: G-ABCD is at Kilo with information Alpha AN 1234, QFE 1234 request
Taxi

Surely it would be better to 'just introduce' yourself to the Tower before
babbling for 10 seconds only to be told by the Tower to 'Stand By' as he
is
about to vector a 737 in for an approach.

I hate it (especially earlier in my training) when I would make a rushed
tongue tied call to the Tower only to be either told to Stand By or
realise
I was talking over someone else.

Any comments or advice?

Better to learn at learn that [Luton] level, than to learn at a grass
strip and be
frightened of going near a control zone.

Yes, definitely. I learned to fly at Norwich, and actually did about 10
hours out of RAF Coltishall, and so I got to do a lot of R/T that those
flying from little rural places wouldn't do. My R/T examiner commented that
he can always tell someone who's done their course at a fully-featured, busy
airport versus someone who's learned at a dinky place with an oft-silent
air-ground station and has no actual experience of (say) calling a military
guy for a MATZ crossing, or having a radar advisory service, or whatever.

D.

Exactly my point. I used to own a Warrior and flew virtually every week. I
just restarted after a three year layoff, although I flew with a friend
sometimes from Stapleford. My instructor at Luton said he could always tell
if someone had learned their R/T at a grass strip or a controlled airfield.
I learnt at Southend in the days when it had a control zone.
If you learnt at Norwich, you might have been to Earls Colne (EGSR). That's
where my plane was (and still is) based. Did a lot of flying around E.Anglia

John

"David Cartwright" wrote in message
...
Better to learn at learn that [Luton] level, than to learn at a grass
strip and be
frightened of going near a control zone.

Yes, definitely. I learned to fly at Norwich, and actually did about 10
hours out of RAF Coltishall, and so I got to do a lot of R/T that those
flying from little rural places wouldn't do. My R/T examiner commented
that
he can always tell someone who's done their course at a fully-featured,
busy
airport versus someone who's learned at a dinky place with an oft-silent
air-ground station and has no actual experience of (say) calling a
military
guy for a MATZ crossing, or having a radar advisory service, or whatever.

D.