First Time Buyer. Help!

I would have to disagree with you Richard.

I bought my plane at about 25 hours. I was incredibly bored with the planes
I was renting. The new plane was so much nicer to fly. I flew much more
often, and enjoyed it much more.

Also, if you buy a new plane, it can make sense to move up much sooner than
5 years because of depreciation rules. If you buy used, you can usually get
most of what you paid for the plane if not more (assuming you don't get
taken on the buy). So I really don't get your 5 year rule.

Now, if you figure you really need a 182 for your mission, and you are not
ready to own one, then it would make sense to rent a 172 until then.

On the other hand, if what you really want is an Archer, and it meets your
needs, then why wait?

A more important factor may be the time it takes to BE an airplane owner.
Imagine dealing with your car mechanic on nearly a monthly basis. You are
already taking time out of your schedule to learn to fly, it you buy a used
plane, you could be adding another part time job to your schedule.


"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...

"KayInPA" wrote in message
...

Kay
Student Pilot

I would very much suggest you hold off on buying an airplane while you are
a
student pilot. Get your private and then figure out what your typical
flying mission will be like. Many (most?) pilots find out that their
aviation goals and missions change once they get their private and start
flying for pleasure.

Even if your goal is to get your instrument rating, I am not sure it makes
sense to buy an airplane just for that goal. The cost of owning an
airplane
is substantially more than the cost of an IFR rating, and one way airplane
owners often SUBSTANTIALLY increase their costs is by buying an airplane
which does not meet their needs and then trading up in 1-2 years.

You need to hold onto an airplane for 5+ years in order to make the
economics of maintenance somewhat realistic. Buying a 172 to complete
your
IFR training -- only to realize you really need a 182 given the
distance/payload of your trips -- would be way way more expensive than
getting your IFR rating in a rental 172.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

suggestion and fly different kinds of aircraft. First on the list is
the FBO's Piper Arrow.

If the FBO has a reasonably maintained Arrow for rent, why buy?
Retractables usually get much less use at most FBOs than trainers, and
certainly the FBO will realize that the potential customer to rent an
Arrow
is someone to take the airplane on trips. The odds are very high you can
negotiate reasoanble terms for weekend or week-long trips in the airplane.


Our local clubs have the opposite experience. The Arrow at one, and the 177
RG at the other are rented out over 60 hours a month unless they are in the
shop over yet another wheels up landing.


Jay, that's the lure indeed. Thanks so much for your post!

If you are going to buy the airplane as a partnership, then you will not
necessarily be able to use it "on a momen't notice" to go to Florida.
Besides, on a practical basis you need a good deal of flexibility in your
schedule to fly that kind of trip in a piston single even if you are an
experienced IFR pilot in an extremely well-equipped high performance
single.

I really think you should just rent for a while and figure out what types
of
trips truly fit into your schedule and lifestyle and thus what type of
airplane you really need. If you buy and airplane to meet your needs as a
private student or as an instrument student, the odds are high that your
needs will change and make the airplane a very expensive short-term asset.


See my disagreement with this above. In my mind, a pilot should get over a
hundred hours (more is better) before stepping up to anything more than a
180hp or less trainer. Most people take 2 years to fly that 100 hours.

Perhaps your advice is too general? Maybe its even best for the majority,
but in my mind, not the overwhelming majority.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Dude" wrote in message
...


I bought my plane at about 25 hours. I was incredibly bored with the
planes
I was renting. The new plane was so much nicer to fly. I flew much more
often, and enjoyed it much more.

How long have you owned this plane? If you have owned it 5+ years, then
yes, it was a good deal. If that time has not yet elapsed, then time will
tell if it meets your needs as your flying habits evolve.

Also, if you buy a new plane, it can make sense to move up much sooner
than
5 years because of depreciation rules. If you buy used, you can usually
get

A student pilot buying a new plane?!? $200K invested in a very recently
aquired hobby?

most of what you paid for the plane if not more (assuming you don't get
taken on the buy). So I really don't get your 5 year rule.

If you sell a used plane within a few years of buying it, you will no doubt
have spent more money in catch-up maintenance than you can realistically
recover when you sell it.

On the other hand, if what you really want is an Archer, and it meets your
needs, then why wait?

Because at 25 hours it is unlikely you will know what you really want.
Your needs will change, you will prefer X-ctry or aerobatics or you will
need to go into short strips or you will need extended range or who knows
what else will change.



--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Dude" wrote in message
...

See my disagreement with this above. In my mind, a pilot should get over
a
hundred hours (more is better) before stepping up to anything more than a
180hp or less trainer. Most people take 2 years to fly that 100 hours.

Absolutely... Beyond a doubt a pilot with under 100 hours does not know yet
what his/her long-term flying mission is and buying an airplane at that time
is probably not a good idea.

Perhaps your advice is too general? Maybe its even best for the majority,
but in my mind, not the overwhelming majority.

It is the very rare pilot indeed who at less than 100 hours has a good feel
for what airplane will suit his long-term flying missions.

And it is the very rare pilot indeed who at less than 100 hours has a good
grasp of the economics of airplane ownership.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

On 4-Apr-2004, Stephen N Mills wrote:

The 3-way partnership that I am in (Cardinal RG '75) has a mixed form:

snip

I have owned planes solo previously, this is my first partnership.
I have been in this for just over a year and am "happy as a hog in
slops" as the country phrase goes.

- Steve


I, too, have been in 3-way partnerships, in my case for a number of years
and with three different airplanes. We have always used a simple formula in
which all fixed and maintenance expenses are divided evenly and fuel
(returned to specific tank levels) is paid by the user. This works for us
because we each use the plane approximately the same number of hours per
year on average.

In my opinion, a GOOD partnership is the best compromise between cost and
availability, Our Arrow IV gets flown about 180 - 220 hrs/year, and even
with a hangar and meticulous maintenance we honestly figure our average
hourly costs are below what we would have to pay if we rented a comparable
airplane. But unlike renting, we have almost complete scheduling freedom.
With three owners each flying about 70 hours/year, conflicts are rare. We
now use an on-line scheduling system that makes things even simpler.

--
-Elliott Drucker

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Tom Sixkiller wrote:

Which is generally how high? How bout the MEA's in the area?

The New York trio is 7,500', Philly is 7,500', and the Baltimore/DC trio
is 10,000'.
Of course, the ADIZ reduces the utility of being able to get over the DC
class-B.
Glancing at the IFR chart for this area, I see one MEA as low as 1,600'
and a high of
14,000. Most are in the 2-5 thousand foot range. There have been noises
about
increasing the NY class-B to 10,000'.


Denver's runs to 12,000 and, come early summer I'll likely be flying out of
Colorado Springs, 6200' up to 6900' if I base near Blackforest (00V). MEA's
westbound run in the high 13's.

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...


"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...
I'm looking at an F33A and will likely add turbonormalization (TATurbo),
amybe SKS but I'm not sure that latter one's a necessity.

For flying in the Colorado mountains on a regular mission-oriented basis?

More like "over" than "in".

Known-icing would be the first item on the list.

Hmm...in looking around, I'd say I've seen ZERO known-ice singles around.
Maybe for the winter months, but that's our slow season (custom home
building).

Is the TKS on the F33A
STC'd yet for known-ice? I know they were aiming for it but I am not sure
if they achieved it.

Don't know, I've only seen two with it and they were not aorund here.


Charter costs for six or eight flights a month would be a killer I
suspect.

Not if $100K to $250K are really "on the line" for each trip... it all
depends how mission-critical your trips are.

For that money I'd look at a known-ice turboprop.

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

More like "over" than "in".

How do you plan to get "over" the clouds in the winter?


Hmm...in looking around, I'd say I've seen ZERO known-ice singles around.

Do you mean you do not see that many for sale or you do not see them on the
ramp?

If the former, just look at Mooneys, 210/T210/P210s, Malibus, and
Commanders.

If the latter, do they fly practical cross-countries multiple times per
month?

Maybe for the winter months, but that's our slow season (custom home
building).

April is the most common month for icing accidents.

For that money I'd look at a known-ice turboprop.

Probably not a bad idea for someone with the mission profile you describe...
either you will end up spending more money on charters or airplane ownership
or you will decide your mission is not so critical and cancel some trips or
you will drive or fly commercial on a good number of your trips.

Except for flights restricted to the non-mountainous parts of the Southwest
or the warm parts of the South, the odds of realistically completing
multiple monthly mission-critical cross-country business trips in a
non-deiced piston single are nil unless you are willing to accept regular
cancellations.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

And it is the very rare pilot indeed who at less than 100 hours has a good
grasp of the economics of airplane ownership.

It is a very rare pilot at ANY level of flight experience that has a good
grasp of the economics of airplane ownership.

Owning takes a completely different skill-set than flying.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:nNccc.190156$Cb.1727673@attbi_s51...

It is a very rare pilot at ANY level of flight experience that has a good
grasp of the economics of airplane ownership.
Owning takes a completely different skill-set than flying.

Yes, I can agree with that completely.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com