Looking for non-biased resource

I had a brief meeting with my CEO last week. Our company spends 80K - 120K
annually on commercial flights. He knows I am a private pilot and he asked
me if I could prepare a comparative analysis of alternatives such as
fractional ownership, outright ownership, leaseback or charter.

I don't know jack about jets. My assumption is that I'm looking at a jet
versus a King Air or similar. We're based in Houston and regularly fly to
both coasts with 3 - 6 passengers. I am looking at a large, empty
spreadsheet. Many manufacturers and brokers offer breakdowns for their
products but I am looking for a non-biased source for several pieces of
information.

1.) Where can I find non-biased, mostly accurate estimate of direct and
indirect operating costs?

2.) There are several business jet models available for 1,000,000 like the
Hawker DH 125, Sabre, Citation 500, Lear 24 and 25, Jet Commander. Short of
looking up all the AD's for each variation of each model, where can I find
an honest review of those models with both pros and cons?

3.) Is $1,000,000 reasonable or should I expect those aircraft to be in
need of some serious work, AD compliance, or expensive upgrades to meet RVSM
certification?

4.) Anybody know what a full time corporate pilot makes nowadays?

TIA,
Ed

nobody wrote:

I had a brief meeting with my CEO last week. Our company spends 80K - 120K
annually on commercial flights. He knows I am a private pilot and he asked
me if I could prepare a comparative analysis of alternatives such as
fractional ownership, outright ownership, leaseback or charter.

I don't know jack about jets. My assumption is that I'm looking at a jet
versus a King Air or similar. We're based in Houston and regularly fly to
both coasts with 3 - 6 passengers. I am looking at a large, empty
spreadsheet. Many manufacturers and brokers offer breakdowns for their
products but I am looking for a non-biased source for several pieces of
information.

1.) Where can I find non-biased, mostly accurate estimate of direct and
indirect operating costs?

2.) There are several business jet models available for 1,000,000 like the
Hawker DH 125, Sabre, Citation 500, Lear 24 and 25, Jet Commander. Short of
looking up all the AD's for each variation of each model, where can I find
an honest review of those models with both pros and cons?

3.) Is $1,000,000 reasonable or should I expect those aircraft to be in
need of some serious work, AD compliance, or expensive upgrades to meet RVSM
certification?

4.) Anybody know what a full time corporate pilot makes nowadays?

TIA,
Ed



You might try to contact the flight department of a local corporation or
two. They may or may not be willing to share cost data. Also, a local
charter operator might be of assistance. I'm not that familiar with the
NBAA, but they might have something as well.


Matt

A good pilot alone will take up half of your 80-120K, you will most
likely need two.
Michelle

nobody wrote:

I had a brief meeting with my CEO last week. Our company spends 80K - 120K
annually on commercial flights. He knows I am a private pilot and he asked
me if I could prepare a comparative analysis of alternatives such as
fractional ownership, outright ownership, leaseback or charter.

I don't know jack about jets. My assumption is that I'm looking at a jet
versus a King Air or similar. We're based in Houston and regularly fly to
both coasts with 3 - 6 passengers. I am looking at a large, empty
spreadsheet. Many manufacturers and brokers offer breakdowns for their
products but I am looking for a non-biased source for several pieces of
information.

1.) Where can I find non-biased, mostly accurate estimate of direct and
indirect operating costs?

2.) There are several business jet models available for 1,000,000 like the
Hawker DH 125, Sabre, Citation 500, Lear 24 and 25, Jet Commander. Short of
looking up all the AD's for each variation of each model, where can I find
an honest review of those models with both pros and cons?

3.) Is $1,000,000 reasonable or should I expect those aircraft to be in
need of some serious work, AD compliance, or expensive upgrades to meet RVSM
certification?

4.) Anybody know what a full time corporate pilot makes nowadays?

TIA,
Ed

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 08:08:09 GMT, "nobody" wrote:



I had a brief meeting with my CEO last week. Our company spends 80K - 120K
annually on commercial flights. He knows I am a private pilot and he asked
me if I could prepare a comparative analysis of alternatives such as
fractional ownership, outright ownership, leaseback or charter.

I don't know jack about jets. My assumption is that I'm looking at a jet
versus a King Air or similar. We're based in Houston and regularly fly to
both coasts with 3 - 6 passengers.

Me either, but I do know enough to say that outright ownership is
going to be impossible for $100k/year, especially if opportunity cost
or loan payments are considered. The loan payment on most jets will
approach $100k/year. Throw in a hangar rent, insurance, and a
corporate pilot (or two), and you will have hit $100k without going
anywhere. You could probably leaseback the jet to the local
charter/FBO operation to help defray the fixed costs, but I have a
hard time believing a jet leaseback can make it financially feasible.

Charter will be expensive too, but then again, so are the airlines if
the trips are last minute and to out of the way destinations. It is
easy to spend $1000/ticket. If you are flying 3-6 people via $1000
airline tickets, givent the time savings and flexibility involved, a
charter may make sense instead.

2.) There are several business jet models available for 1,000,000 like the
Hawker DH 125, Sabre, Citation 500, Lear 24 and 25, Jet Commander. Short of
looking up all the AD's for each variation of each model, where can I find
an honest review of those models with both pros and cons?

3.) Is $1,000,000 reasonable or should I expect those aircraft to be in
need of some serious work, AD compliance, or expensive upgrades to meet RVSM
certification?

Many of the older jets use fuel inefficient engines that will increase
hourly fuel costs. Also, many older jets are so loud that they are
limited in terms of when & what airports they can use. One other
consideration is runway length. If you are flying to out of the way
destinations, a 350 kt Citation (which requires less than 3500ft of
runway) may be much quicker door-door than a 500kt Lear that requires
5000+ ft runways.

Ops figures for several of the Citation series can be found at:
http://www.risingup.com

Last, I would spend some time at this website - NBAA has published
many articles that address your situation and your questions.
http://web.nbaa.org/public/about/library/

-Nathan

NBAA?

And accountant that specializes in aviation?

Matt,

My company is in the business of doing those kinds of studies. One
thing I can say with confidence is there is no way you can own a jet
cheaper than taking the airlines. When people or companies decide to
get their own aircraft, it is some of the same reasons you own your
own car. Public transportation is certainly cheaper.

Ego - I always wanted my own (The Jones's deal)
My own space
Point to point transportation
Can't get there from here
Fits my lifestyle

Can it be cheaper? - never. I don't get involved with small older
jets, but budget about $1M a year to operate a larger one.


Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Blanche wrote:

NBAA?

National Business Aircraft Association.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 08:08:09 GMT, "nobody"
wrote:

Our company spends 80K - 120K
annually on commercial flights. He knows I am a private pilot and he asked
me if I could prepare a comparative analysis of alternatives such as
fractional ownership, outright ownership, leaseback or charter.


Just from what I know about operating/owning small aircraft, and the
charter business, you're doing pretty well right now, and any other
alternative will be significantly more expensive.

My .02.
z

nobody wrote:
I had a brief meeting with my CEO last week. Our company spends 80K - 120K
annually on commercial flights. He knows I am a private pilot and he asked
me if I could prepare a comparative analysis of alternatives such as
fractional ownership, outright ownership, leaseback or charter.

If you're goal is purely to save money on airfare, you WILL not succeed in most
circumstances.

You will need to factor in all the other things like ground connections if you
fly to places without scheduled air service regularly, and the time your employees
spend down due to the inherent time overheads in flying commercially.

Michelle P wrote:
A good pilot alone will take up half of your 80-120K, you will most
likely need two.

Which is why the fractional ownership stuff comes with fractional pilots
as well :-0