Air Force One seen by BA pilot

Not to mention, of course, that I have yet to see a TFR that follows the
airplane enroute... Besides shutting down half the country's airspace, it
would also be a big-time security breach...

"2/1234 TX.. FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS SOUTHEAST USA DECEMBER 3, 2003 LOCAL.
PURSUANT TO TITLE 14, SECTION 91.141 OF THE CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS,
AIRCRAFT FLIGHT OPERATIONS ARE PROHIBITED ON THE FOLLOWING NAVIGATION
POINTS AND AIRWAY(S) UNLESS OTHERWISE AUTHORIZED BY ATC. ACT V54 LIT
V124 GQE V47 DYR V140 AZQ V115 HVQ V4 ESL V166 MRB V8 DCA
FROM 0312031550 (0950 LOCAL 12/03/03) UNTIL 0312031700 (1100 LOCAL
11/30/03). WIE UNTIL UFN"

Might as well advertise!


Martin Hotze wrote in
:

On 28 Nov 2003 10:37:39 -0800, Milo wrote:

First of all, did that BA pilot have binoculars?
How did he see AF1 with the TFR in place, I assume they are in effect
wherever AF1 goes in the world.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

*Aheeeem* the FAA only works within the US of A. And there are countries
left with their own government and airspace. ;-)

#m

Gary

Not trying to put you down but have lots of experience with 1000 mph +
rates of closure in heavy iron. That's over 16 miles a minute and
about 1500 feet per second. At one eye blink per second that's about
7500 feet for 5 seconds. That's almost a mile and a half travel in the
5 seconds. If it takes the brain 2 seconds to process information a
bird can be pretty dam close before one can try to recognize.

Unless one is forewarned by center, aircrew may or may not see
closing traffic unless pulling a con. Trans ocean traffic is very
boring (as you know being in the business) and no one crew member is
tasked and sits there with an eye ball covering the forward quadrant
during the long cruise portion of flight. In fact some airlines allow
one pilot to nap during fight so he will be sharp at destination I'm
told. They found some pilots were doing this due to late night and
boredom so they made it legal ) Couldn't do that in the fighters so
they gave us Phenobarb (sp) prior to landing.

All of this discussion after the fact is media garbage. Bird with
President aboard does NOT have to use the Call Sign AF!. In Stealth
mode it can be called anything.

I'm just surprised that some media type didn't let the cat out of the
bag unless they took all the cell phones away and gave everyone a pat
down and only let them use the birds com system after they had
departed Iraq and were in International airspace.

No matter what the nay sayer's say, good trip and a boost for those in
Iraq even if he was pretty closely monitored and protected. He did go
in harms way and a brace of mortars could have caused a lot of
casualties and put the media in a frenzy.

Big John

New subject. Where can I get the positive and negative G limits of
commercial birds, 747, 757, 767, etc? I want operational limits not
ultimate. Have looked on Internet and not found so far.



On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 20:34:09 GMT, "Gary Mishler"
wrote:

"Big John" wrote in message
.. .

I thought center gave vertical and horizontal separation for birds on
same over water route?

They do.

Didn't they a few years ago reduce vertical
separation from 2K to 1K if certain (new accurate alt measuring)
equipment was on board the aircraft to increase (double) traffic
density on the overseas routes?

Yes, it's called RVSM = Reduced Verticle Seperation Minimums

If flight was direct from way point to way point then I doubt if the
birds came within visual range??? Would be an odd throw of the dice.

Huh? With all do respect, I do this for a living and there are "birds"
somewhere in the Flight Levels that come within visual range of each other
(both same and opposite direction) every minuite of every day. We are often
able to visually identify company paint schemes and aircraft types (again
both same and opposite direction) all the time. There is nothing odd about
it at all. Plus, with the 1K RVSM sep that you talk about above, it would
be even easier.

That said, I can postulate a situation where two birds with a few
thousand feet vertical clearance going the same direction on the same
route and with different cruising speeds, slowly pass each other and
BA be able to recognize the distinctive paint job on AF1. This in day
light of course.

In the real world "birds" don't just flash past each other in the FL's in
the blink of an eye. Even if opposite direction you usually have several
seconds of good visual (weather conditions permiting, of course) opportunity
for an identification.

Tale has a lot of characteristics of a good bar story ...

I disagree. To those of us in the trenches (er, Flight Levels) it has the
characteristics of an entirley plausable event that happens every day.

Good show George.

Agreed.

Regards,
Mish

Big John wrote:

Not trying to put you down but have lots of experience with 1000 mph +
rates of closure in heavy iron. That's over 16 miles a minute and
about 1500 feet per second. At one eye blink per second that's about
7500 feet for 5 seconds. That's almost a mile and a half travel in the
5 seconds. If it takes the brain 2 seconds to process information a
bird can be pretty dam close before one can try to recognize.

While it's not a sure thing, it's by no means impossible, or even
unlikely. As a passenger, I have been able to identify the owners of
aircraft flying in the opposite direction while traversing the North
Atlantic. If I happen to be staring out the window, and the lighting is
right, some paint schemes are quite clear in the five or so seconds you
see them. The rapid movement of the aircraft first attracts your eyes,
and you tend focus on the aircraft just as it passes. Further, 747s
aren't that common on the North Atlantic run these days, and the Air
Force paint scheme is easily recognizable, making identification that
much more likely, if you happen to be looking in the right direction.

I thought any aircraft which caries the President is refered to as Air Force
1?

True.

I do not know but I would guess he left the flashy blue and white bird on
the safe side of town.

According to the Washington Post pool reporter, whose notes are posted
on the Drudge Report, it was one of the AF1 paint jobs. I believe
there are two of these, and I don't think there is a variant in mufti
that carries all the equipment needed for POTUS, as he is
unfortuantely called.

One AF1 was flown from Texas to Andrews AFB, where they changed planes
and picked up more reporters (and perhaps staff, I don't recall).


all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Not to mention, of course, that I have yet to see a TFR that follows the
airplane enroute... Besides shutting down half the country's airspace, it
would also be a big-time security breach...

Of course they do exactly this for a presidential motorcade.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

I'm just surprised that some media type didn't let the cat out of the
bag unless they took all the cell phones away

No, they only had them remove the batteries

No reporter so well established that he gets a seat on AF1 is going to
jeopardize his career by breaking the rules that way, especially when
told up front that the plane will turn around if word gets out.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"James Robinson" wrote in message
...

While it's not a sure thing, it's by no means impossible, or even
unlikely. As a passenger, I have been able to identify the owners of
aircraft flying in the opposite direction while traversing the North
Atlantic. If I happen to be staring out the window, and the lighting is
right, some paint schemes are quite clear in the five or so seconds you
see them. The rapid movement of the aircraft first attracts your eyes,
and you tend focus on the aircraft just as it passes. Further, 747s
aren't that common on the North Atlantic run these days, and the Air
Force paint scheme is easily recognizable, making identification that
much more likely, if you happen to be looking in the right direction.

Exactly right! Thank you.

"Big John" wrote in message
...

Not trying to put you down but have lots of experience with 1000 mph +
rates of closure in heavy iron. That's over 16 miles a minute and
about 1500 feet per second. At one eye blink per second that's about
7500 feet for 5 seconds. That's almost a mile and a half travel in the
5 seconds. If it takes the brain 2 seconds to process information a
bird can be pretty dam close before one can try to recognize.

All that aside, it happens every minuite of every day ....

Big John wrote
New subject. Where can I get the positive and negative G limits
of commercial birds, 747, 757, 767, etc? I want operational
limits not ultimate. Have looked on Internet and not found so
far.

From my B-727 AIRCRAFT manual, I don't know about BIRDS.

Flaps UP.........+2.5...-1.0
Flaps DOWN.......+2.0...-0.0

Bob Moore

"Big John" wrote in message

I'm just surprised that some media type didn't let the cat out of the
bag unless they took all the cell phones away

My understanding (according to Wash Post) is that that is about exactly what
happened. Reporters were given cell phones back after departing Baghdad.


Given the incessant and "uncontrolled" leakage that goes on these days,
Everyone should note that no one (NO ONE) in Congress was informed, and only
a few hand picked press who were on the craft. The way to enhance security
is to keep Congress out of the loop. Sad, isn't it?

JG