Frangible bullets

Yet another myth -- that frangible bullets will provide an adequate defense
against terrorists while minimizing the possibility of aircraft damage.

Frangible bullets explode on contact with a target. Good idea if the target
is the skin of an aircraft or the skin of a terrorist. Bad idea if the
terrorist wears thick enough clothing or maybe a layer of Kevlar and the
frangible bullet will not penetrate the protective layer. Meanwhile those
bullet shards will be flying all over the place.

I would prefer that sky marshals be issued armor piercing rounds that will
penetrate bullet-proof vests and make only small holes in airplanes. Perhaps
a mix of the first couple of rounds armor piercing and the rest dum-dums
just to make sure the ******* is dead.

--
Christopher J. Campbell
World Famous Flight Instructor
Port Orchard, WA


If you go around beating the Bush, don't complain if you rile the animals.

Also, if the terrorist
got kevlar through security, somebody's gonna lose their job.

Interesting. Will a Kevlar vest trigger the walk-through metal detectors?

If not, how will security detect it?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jeffrey Voight" wrote in message ...
Saw a show on TLC or something about frangibles. It was my
understanding that frangibles would go through a fairly serious amounts
of clothing before becoming one with the target. Also, if the terrorist
got kevlar through security, somebody's gonna lose their job.

Really, we have kevlar detectors out there now? Getting Kevlar through security
would be trivial.

"Jeffrey Voight" wrote in message ...


Oh, actually, now that I think of it, the buttons would on a .mil flak
jacket. They have to make them big enough for a troop to manipulate
with gloves. Without the buttons and grommets, I don't know.

The stuff they sell for the cops around here are velcro'd.

:

dum-dums

Actually, when this subject first came up I wondered if "frangible"
simply wasn't a non-gun-freak's idea of a soft-nosed bullet.

What do coppers use in their Police Specials and (increasingly) Nines?
Are they brass-jacketed military rounds or soft-nosed? Seems to me the
latter would be much safer, and not just in hijacking scenarios. Plus
they would be far more likely to disable the bad guy.

I've often been amused by the thought that shooting at a man obliges
the shooter to use a brass-jacketed round, while shooting at a deer
obliges him to use soft-nosed shells (or a lead slug, in the county
where I live).

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Jeffrey Voight" wrote in message
...
Saw a show on TLC or something about frangibles. It was my
understanding that frangibles would go through a fairly serious amounts
of clothing before becoming one with the target. Also, if the terrorist
got kevlar through security, somebody's gonna lose their job.

There are umpteen other ways to get them on board.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
Really, we have kevlar detectors out there now? Getting Kevlar through
security
would be trivial.

Furthermore, is Kevlar a banned carry-on item? I don't see why it would be.

Cub Driver wrote:

I've often been amused by the thought that shooting at a man obliges
the shooter to use a brass-jacketed round, while shooting at a deer
obliges him to use soft-nosed shells (or a lead slug, in the county
where I live).

Hunting ammo for rifles is also brass-jacketed. The difference between it and
military rounds is that the jacket on military rounds covers the entire bullet;
in hunting rounds, the tip is left exposed. This gives the military round more
range and decreases the chance that the round will kill the enemy soldier (as
agreed to by the Hague Convention). The hunting round expands more readily on
contact and is designed to kill as humanely (ie: rapidly) as possible.

Rounds used by the police depend on local policies. The policy of the FBI is to
use rounds deliberately designed to kill as certainly and rapidly as possible.
They are not fully jacketed. The so-called "cop-killer" rounds were designed to
be used by the police to punch through car doors. They're jacketed.

Unjacketed lead bullets are used almost exclusively in some types of black powder
firearms and in shotguns.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

Hunting ammo for rifles is also brass-jacketed. The difference between it and
military rounds is that the jacket on military rounds covers the entire bullet;
in hunting rounds, the tip is left exposed. This gives the military round more
range and decreases the chance that the round will kill the enemy soldier (as
agreed to by the Hague Convention). The hunting round expands more readily on
contact and is designed to kill as humanely (ie: rapidly) as possible.

Well, this is just a little bit off, in my experience.

Jacketed rounds aren't meant to less the chance the round will kill
the soldier, but to lessen the damage it does to his insides if he
survives the hit.

And hunting rounds are soft-nosed not to kill rapidly but to ensure
that a leg wound or or non-fatal hit will cripple the deer, so that he
will be tracked and killed by the hunter, rather than escaping into
the next county and dying a slow death from the cold and predators.

I know how hunting rounds are built. I'm sitting less than two feet
from a box of .303 British Core Lokt Soft Point.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

The only dangerous
thing that a bullet in an aircraft could do is hit something in the
control system (guess how many backup systems there are?) or take out
an engine (they can fly without one) or hit one of the people in the
cockpit. (there are two of them, at least)

Well, it could hit me--that's dangerous!

Thanks for the information about frangibles / prefragmented / sky
marshal rounds. But are the marshal's rounds different again from
prefragmented?

The way I'm reading this is this: Sky marshals do indeed have a type
of breakup round that is intended to lessen the chance that the guy
behind the hijacker will be killed, and that has nothing to do with
the possibility of piercing the aircraft shell?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com