Capt. Al Haynes sorta OT.

In NYC it is common for the head janitor to be over a hundred grand...

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
news

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Newps wrote:

Turns out the average
teacher salary is $41.5 here with 25-30% of the teachers making more
than $50K per year.

Fifteen years ago, the figures for the Franklin Township high school
were
made
public. The janitor was making more than a CS major with a master's
degree
would
get as starting pay ($41,000). The school had two principals, both
making
over
$110,000. Teachers salaries were in the $70,000 range and up.

They don't publicize the figures any more.

They also stopped publishing stats around the country when someone pointed
out that half or more of school spending was just "administrators"....like
third assistant vice-principals.

REALLY?!?!? Send them to Northern VA where we had lots of unfilled
positions
last year with subs filling in. For quite a while 1/3 of our special ed
teachers were on emergengy certificates. We can't find enough teachers to
fill
the rooms.

The fact that it's difficult to find Special Ed teachers doesn't surprise me
at all -- many people wouldn't do what you do for all the tea in China. In
fact, I think special education is such a different animal as to not really
be comparable to other teaching jobs.

What you do, Margy, is beyond special, and qualifies you for sainthood.

(Even more than being married to Ron, as hard as that is to believe...)

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Sad but often true. That's just one of the "headaches" I was talking
about. I know
a few very talented teachers who have vowed NEVER to teach GT (gifted and
talented)
again unless all of the students were orphans. They loved the kids, but
the parents
drove them away.

Another facet is discipline. Without it, the teachers are doomed.

Our example: Iowa has it -- Wisconsin did not.

It took half a dozen trips to the principal's office before my then-2nd
grade son truly understood that when they said "Stay off the grass!" they
REALLY meant "Stay off the grass!"

In Wisconsin, the rules were simply not enforced. As a result, they had to
install metal detectors in the middle schools, and cops in the high
schools -- and we had to get our kids out of there.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Margy Natalie" wrote in message
...


Rob Perkins wrote:

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 19:12:01 -0500, Margy Natalie
wrote:

I don't think that is true, but the statistic I know is true states
that most
teachers leave teaching in the first 5 years. The reason? The pay
isn't worth
the headaches, time, etc.

There's more than just salary levels behind the paucity of good
teachers.

I'm personally acquainted with one teacher who quit after one year.
The reason? The school board stood behind a pair of wealthy parents
who wanted their daughter to get away with cheating on his final test.
When he refused his "contract was not renewed."



Margy

A friend of mine from high school retired from the Navy at 38! He pulls a
decent pension and last I heard had a great civilian job at the Pentagon.
Don't
most folks get a pension after 32 years at the same job?

Uh, no.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Ummm, who paid for all those airports and ATC facilities you and your
customers use? Without those federally funded airports would you even
have a business?

Actually, my research shows that our airport was built by Boeing Air
Transport.

Of course, since then it's accepted federal funding...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Newps wrote:
A year ago December the teachers in our district went on strike for
better pay and benefits. The conventional wisdom is that your typical
public school teacher is lucky to make $30K after many hard years of
teaching. Since teachers salaries are a matter of public record a full
page ad was taken out in the Sunday paper the first weekend of the
strike. Every teacher in the school district was listed, by name, and
how much they made for that current school year. Turns out the average
teacher salary is $41.5 here with 25-30% of the teachers making more
than $50K per year. Starting pay was mid $20's. You could literally
see the support for the teachers evaporate on that Sunday. A settlement
was reached shortly there after. A teacher strike will not ever happen
here again.

Did the teachers then post the salaries of the administration personnel?
That would be very eye opening...

Even the salaries you list above are way below the average in my area
for jobs that require a master's degree. Maybe they are competitive in
your area, but they wouldn't be in PA or NY. Skilled labor in our area
make in the 40s and that is with no college education at all. The must
complete an apprenticeship, but this is paid, they aren't paying for it.

Matt

Margy Natalie wrote:

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote:


Richard Hertz wrote:

I am changing careers. After working for 12 years in the computer science
industry I am going to "semi-retire" to teach math and computer science.
Many family members and acquaintances teach and when I compare their
lifestyle and working hours and stress to mine I conclude that the pay cut
is worth the reduced hours and the retirement benefits are almost criminal.
(in my opinion)

Let us know what you think after completing your first year of teaching.
Good luck! I've often thought of this as well, but I know several
teachers very well and low stress isn't in their job description.



One of our newer teachers who left industry to teach stated at the end of his
first year "now I know why teachers have the summer off, they need it to
recover". He said he had never been so tired and burned out in his life. He's
still teaching and rather good at it.

I still may well give it a try as a second career if I get a shot at an
early retirement package from my current employer. I think my CS/EE
degrees would qualify me fairly well to teach math and science.
However, I have no delusions of it being a high pay/low stress job.


Matt

Margy Natalie wrote:

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote:


One other big problem is the non-meritocracy of government/school systems.
Pay is based on years of service and so-called education credits. In the
"real" world pay is based on performance, merit, etc.

Yes, that is my biggest beef with the teaching system at present. And
the fact that it is unionized. I don't believe that "professional" and
"union" go together, but then many pilots are union also...



I'm in a "right to work" State so Union doesn't mean anything. The real reason
teachers don't have a merit system is they discovered it was detrimental to the
students. Right now if I write a lesson that really clicks and works great I
make copies and give it to all the other teachers. We help each other out to
give the best to our kids. Under merit pay (which many districts had for a
while) teachers would keep their best lessons to themselves so they could be in
the top 5% to get the raise. It didn't work. Another problem is how to score
teachers to rank them.

We have the same problem in private industry, but there are ways to
mitigate it and I still believe that pay for performance is critical to
achieving high performance. You could have merit pay based on the
performance of an entire grade or school (somewhat analagous to profit
sharing at a corporation). You can also base merit pay and promotions
on how much a teacher helps and mentors other teachers. This is an
explicit promotion requirement for technical professionals at my
company. If you are keeping the goods to yourself, you'll not get
promoted. No system is perfect, but I've worked in both environments,
and I'll take a merit/performance based compensation system any day.


Matt

Morgans wrote:
"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote

You could have merit pay based on the

performance of an entire grade or school (somewhat analagous to profit
sharing at a corporation).


Matt


So you want to base teacher performance on student achievement? What is the
incentive for the students to pay attention to what is being taught, learn,
and do well on the test? There is none, for most students, at present.
They are only there because the law says they must be there.

Have you ever watched some students take a standardized test, when there is
nothing in it for them? They go A,B,C,D,A,B,C,D. Don't laugh, I have seen
it, more than a few times. This is how you want merit pay to work? I don't
think so.

I welcome good answers to the problem. Problem is, no one seems to have
any.

When I was in school there were teachers able to motivate almost any
student and teachers that couldn't motivate anyone. No system is
perfect, but I want the teachers that are best at motivating their
students to get the best pay and have the greatest chance of staying on
the job. And maybe the other teachers will watch and learn from the
teachers that have figured it out. I'm not saying it is easy, but if
all schools have this problem, then the playing field is level and
whichever teachers are best in even this environment should be rewarded.


Matt

Morgans wrote:
"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...

In NYC it is common for the head janitor to be over a hundred grand...


DAmn!



But have you checked the cost of living in NYC lately? 100 grand is
probably barely above poverty level... :-)


Matt