non-towered airport question

Blanche wrote in message ...
My worst complaint is the pilot (not from the area) who insists on doing
a left pattern when the AF/D and the sectionals all explicitly state
right pattern. Why? Because FTG is cozy in the SE corner of DEN's
class B. A mile west or a mile north, and you're violating the
Class B surfact airspace.

Similar situation at our home airport. Left traffic for two of the
runways snugs you up very close to Class B.

And when the pilot is reminded about the right traffic, he (why is
it *always* a man?) responds "not in my book!"

*hee* *hee*

Is there a directional indicator around the windsock? I'd have
trouble not responding "see those little yellow thingies circling
the windsock down there?"

Yeah, and then there's published TPA of 800 ft but all the planes
who insist on flying at 1000.

Cheers,
Sydney

(Snowbird) wrote:

And when the pilot is reminded about the right traffic, he (why is
it *always* a man?) responds "not in my book!"

*hee* *hee*

Cheers,
Sydney

I cannot accept that guys are doing this. It is well known that women
have a genetic disposition to mixing "left" and "right".

Ok folks, lighten up. Women are wonderful.

Ron "I live in Pakistan" Lee

On 13 Jan 2004 07:09:14 -0800, (Snowbird)
wrote:

My personal nightmare scenario is an airport with left
traffic for one runway, right traffic for another. The
wind is calm or almost directly across, or else one pilot
decides to land or takeoff downwind for personal reasons.

FME has this scenario (L traffic for 28, R traffic for 10). This is
done to keep us out of BWI's class B (and some might say avoid
overflying the NSA as well...)

Luckily(?), we have 123.05 as our CTAF, and people tend to be pretty
good about the radio calls. Notwithstanding you *have* to have a
radio around DC these days... With the 123.05, the only other airport
that interferes is way up in PA somewhere, and you can't hear them
from the ground. You can sometimes hear them in the pattern, but
they're real faint. However, due to some twist of fate, they also
have runways 10/28... So CTAF is usually pretty easy to understand
(unlike 122.8/122.7)...

aw

Sound like you did ok. You made your radio calls and watched for
traffic. When you thought it would be a problem you switched runways.
You said 2 other planes joined. If they did not like what they heard
(planes
using 2 differnt runways) they could have not entered the pattern for
practice.
Ron


(Snowbird) wrote in message . com...
What's the general viewpoint here?

A non-towered airport near us has two runways, shaped
like an "L". Totally flat, no obstructions to vision--
airplane at the departure end for one can see airplanes
at the other. Left traffic both, so the downwind for the
short runway crosses the longer runway at midfield.
The possible conflict points are simultaneous T/O,
or crosswind for the short runway/downwind for the
long.

Today at that airport, one aircraft was in the pattern for
the shorter runway, which the wind favored. I wanted to use
the longer runway for various reasons, so exercising a sharp
look-out and making my radio calls, I proceded to do so.
Later another plane joined him.

There were no conflicts AFAIK. Everyone was doing a good job
making transmissions and keeping track of each other.
It was a good exercise for me since our new home airport has
a similar setup with both runways frequently in use -- and the
added complication of right traffic in one direction, left in
the other. I'm still getting used to it.

When a fourth aircraft called in, I decided the spatial
relationships were getting complicated and taxied over to
the short run way, did one short field landing which my instructor
would have liked and I didn't (power on), and headed for the
horizon.

Question is: how would most pilots here feel about this?
Would you feel I should have just joined with traffic
for the shorter runway? In terms of my plane's capabilities
and mine, it's plenty of runway, no reason why not. It just
wasn't what I preferred initially.

I used to be based at that airport and it wasn't uncommon, if
I was in the pattern for the short runway, to have other planes
land on the long. It never bothered me except when someone
came straight-in and obviously had no idea where the rest of
the traffic was. But one of the planes in the pattern seemed
to indicate, um, let's say displeasure with me. That doesn't
concern me -- people have to say whatever they feel improves
safety and presents them in a professional light, *hee* *hee*,
and I kept my rule of "don't argue on freq. just don't and
say you didn't"

However I figure I should ask for a sanity-check on whether
what's SOP at home is regarded as inappropriate or rude
elsewhere.

Cheers,
Sydney

(Ron Lee) wrote in message ...
(Snowbird) wrote:

And when the pilot is reminded about the right traffic, he (why is
it *always* a man?) responds "not in my book!"

I cannot accept that guys are doing this. It is well known that women
have a genetic disposition to mixing "left" and "right".

Actually, Ron, I *have* a genetic disposition to mixing up
"left" and "right", not because I'm a girl but because I'm
a southpaw and I've been reversing directions given for the
right hand all my life.

But what Blanche and I were chuckling over wasn't the
confusion between "right" and "left" but the unwillingness
to accept a friendly, polite correction.

Whether that's really a male pilot trait I leave to each person's
experience

Cheers,
Sydney

"Harry Gordon" wrote in message ...

When I or others have announced a wind change, there has never been an issue
about switching to another runway. Communications are brief and contain the
relative information: "Podunk traffic, Cessna 1234, new wind direction 250,
perferred runway now 27, Podunk."

Hi Harry,

No, I'm not trying to challenge or criticize what you do, just to
understand it and how it applies to situations I'm thinking about.

I can't personally imagine that I would approach an airport where
other planes are already landing in the pattern, listen to AWOS or
look at the wind sock and decide that the wind favors a different
runway, and then make an announcement about "preferred runway now
so and so". I'm not trying to criticize what you say you do, just
to understand it. Personally for me making an announcement about
which runway is preferred to other pilots, would seem like hubris,
especially if I'm the one approaching the airport and they're
already there. I might query which runway the wind favors or
overfly to have a look for myself if there seems to be a discrepency
and I'm not willing to "go with the flow".

I've seen aircraft change which way they're taxiing on the ground.
Done it myself. It's changing direction in the pattern which is
the 'big deal' IMO, especially if the airport is R traffic one way
and L traffic the other (very common around here). If several planes
are established in the pattern for one runway, I'm not sure it's the
safest course of action for them all to switch.

OK, now I'm curious here again. How do you see broadcasting your
reasons for choosing the runway you are using as "avoiding a potential
problem"?

Remember, you broadcast your position, intentions, etc., regardless of
whether or not there are other aircraft in the pattern. The reason I
broadcast my message is to eliminate the possible confusion (maybe I should
have used that word rather than "problem") over an airplane approaching the
field who has listened to AWOS, obtained the wind direction and determined
what runway they will be using. And then when they switch to CTAF have them
hear me using a different runway. It also gives them the ability to contact
me if they so desire.

Well, any communication gives them the ability to contact you so that
seems a moot point wrt broadcasting an explanation of what you're
doing
(do you do this on each leg, or just once per circuit?) vs simply
making standard pattern calls.

But thank you, I think I understand your concern now; you're worried
that
someone will think the AWOS is wrong and the wind favors the runway
you're
using? I'll consider that -- it may be a valid point worth a couple
words. OTOH, I really feel there are a number of valid reasons to
choose the runway which is not aligned with the wind and not all
of them lend themselves to two-word radio calls.

And be assured that I NEVER us a non-preferred runway
for x-wind practice when other aircraft are using the field

OK, so this answers the question I asked you earlier. You said
you would never do x-wind practice when the airport is "busy".
I asked "what do you consider busy?".

Now it looks like your answer is, you would never do crosswind
practice when there is one other aircraft in the pattern or
approaching
the airport to land. If I understand you correctly, if you're already
in the pattern, and someone else approaches the airport and
announces "wind from 300 preferred runway now 270" you would
break off your pattern and join the pattern for the other runway
and land there.

I'm not trying to criticize at all; if that's what you feel
comfortable
with, go for it. But I hope you can understand that for other people,
that may not seem too practical or even too desireable, and their
idea of what's "busy" may differ from yours.

When I fly, I fly with other pilots in the sky.
I will not do anything that jeperdizes either their safety nor
mine - at least intentionally :-).

Well, I would say the same. But clearly I do some things differently
and see some things differently. And there are other pilots who do
and see things still differently from both of us.

I think the problem arises when some people take the attitude
that they have the book on safety and anyone who sees things
differently is "jeopardizing their safety or mine". Please note
I'm not saying I see this attitude from you in what you're writing
here, just that I see this attitude as a problem in and of itself.

Cheers,
Sydney

Below is an email from the Luscombe List. I think the contents pertain to
this issue, and in light of the current media hype, I think it's rather
profound.

Deb
--
1946 Luscombe 8A (His)
1948 Luscombe 8E (Hers)
1954 Cessna 195B, restoring (Ours)
Jasper, Ga. (JZP)

Good morning, list...
I went flying late yesterday after work.
Drove an hour on the Interstate to get to the airport.
Along with three thousand of my best friends...with attitudes.
Did not ask anyone.
Did not tell anyone.
Just unlocked the hangar, did a good preflight, pushed it out on the ramp,
tied the little beast down, swung the prop., and climbed in.
I could have gone anywhere the fuel on board would have let me...about 250
miles, according to the stick I dipped into the gas tanks.
Really high-tech. stuff.
I chose to stay in the pattern and work on my crash and goes.
Talked on the radio to the other planes with radios.
Or the ones that chose to turn their radios on.
An experimental aircraft announced his arrival (Thorp T-18, I believe from
the bent-wings) and flew in to join in the jolly circuits around the runway.
A Cutlass, a Cherokee, the requisite 152, the experimental, and myself all
stayed together, and all got along quite nicely going around and around.
A Skylane joined us for an instrument approach, and we all worked around
him.
A Piper Cub (L-4?) was doing touch and goes on the grass parallel to the
runway...no radio, camouflaged paint, never got above 100', never further
than 500' from the runway, he made four landing to every one of ours.
He doin' his thing.
They doin' theirs.
Me doin' mine.
All enjoying the privilege and freedom of flight.
In the United States of America.
(Actually, God's country here in Texas)
All of us without the luxury of lights quit flying when it got dark.
Duh.
No problem.
No government "controlled airport".
Just common sense, cooperation, good judgment, and respect for each other.
And, get this...I actually carried my pocket knife in my jeans.
Visited with my airport hangar neighbors...you all know the
drill...altogether an enjoyable evening.
Pushed the semi-shiny little thing back in the hangar.
Locked the door (what a concept).
Looked at my watch, and drove home during Dan Rather Time.
I wonder how much longer until this kind of a day becomes just a memory?
bye,
Howard
48-A, square, bare, no pants.

Good afternoon, Sydney.

I think we are both on the "same page" and if not, at least we are getting
there :-). If you go to an aviation book store, don't look for a book
authored by me - you won't find one :-).

I can't personally imagine that I would approach an airport where
other planes are already landing in the pattern, listen to AWOS or
look at the wind sock and decide that the wind favors a different
runway, and then make an announcement about "preferred runway now
so and so".

Nor would I. I'm sorry if that was the impression I gave. I have made that
announcement when in the pattern or on the ground and noticed the change in
the windsock and even then not before confirming the wind change with AWOS.
So far, no one that was in the pattern with me has objected to the
announcement or refused to make an adjustment. In fact, several have
responded with a quick "thank you, changing to runway XX".

......If several planes
are established in the pattern for one runway, I'm not sure it's the
safest course of action for them all to switch.

On one ocassion there were 3 of us and we all switched without any problem.
I would submit that either everyone changes or no one changes and it has
nothing to do with who noticed/announced the wind direction change; it has
to do with safety.



But thank you, I think I understand your concern now; you're worried
that
someone will think the AWOS is wrong and the wind favors the runway
you're
using? I'll consider that -- it may be a valid point worth a couple
words.

That is correct.

OTOH, I really feel there are a number of valid reasons to
choose the runway which is not aligned with the wind and not all
of them lend themselves to two-word radio calls.

Oh, absolutely. I completely agree.


And be assured that I NEVER us a non-preferred runway
for x-wind practice when other aircraft are using the field

OK, so this answers the question I asked you earlier. You said
you would never do x-wind practice when the airport is "busy".
I asked "what do you consider busy?".

If you got the idea that my definition of "busy" should be the universal
definition, I'm sorry I gave that impression. My definition is MY definition
and certainly subject to change given the situation. What I mean is there is
no standard or set parameters that determine when an aiport is busy. For me,
I take into consideration the number of aircraft, the types of flying being
done, the weather, and how I feel at that moment.


Now it looks like your answer is, you would never do crosswind
practice when there is one other aircraft in the pattern or
approaching
the airport to land.


If I had to use a non-preferred runway for the practice - that is correct.
When there are other aircraft in the pattern or soon will be in the pattern,
everyone has to work together or there will be a great potential for
unexpected "opportunities."


If I understand you correctly, if you're already
in the pattern, and someone else approaches the airport and
announces "wind from 300 preferred runway now 270" you would
break off your pattern and join the pattern for the other runway
and land there.

That is correct in part. I have never heard that announcment made by
someone approaching the airport. Unless they had been listening to AWOS for
a while, they wouldn't know the wind had changed. They would hear the wind
direction and then they would decide on the appropriate runway.

The announcement would be made by someone already in the pattern. And if I
were in the pattern when someone else made that announcement, I would make
the necessary adjustments in order to use the preferred runway.

Of course if a airplane was approaching the airport, listened to AWOS, and
then heard "me" say I am using runway 27 when the wind direction favors 32,
they certainly have the opportunity to contact me for clarification. If that
were to happen, I would evaluate where they are in relation to the airport,
where I am in relation to the pattern, and then either abort my pattern for
the non-preferred runway or continue with my landing and then switch to the
preferred runway. For example, if a pilot announces they are 7 miles out and
I am on my downwind, base, or final leg, I have plenty of time to make my
landing. On the other hand, if I notice a NORAD entering the downwind
pattern for the preferred runway, I will abort my pattern and adjust to the
perferred runway.


When I fly, I fly with other pilots in the sky.
I will not do anything that jeperdizes either their safety nor
mine - at least intentionally :-).

Well, I would say the same. But clearly I do some things differently
and see some things differently. And there are other pilots who do
and see things still differently from both of us.

And that in part is what makes flying an adventure :-). Your comment is
underscored with the number of aviation "how-to" books on the market and
they are all by different authors. No, flying is not a "one size fits all."
We have parameters that we need to stay within and guidelines to help in
that endeavor. A real example of the accuracy of your comment is encounted
when you fly with different CFIs and everyone has a slightly different
approach to landing an airplane and then along comes the DE with a DIFFERENT
idea on how landings should be approached (I know...been there, done that).


I think the problem arises when some people take the attitude
that they have the book on safety and anyone who sees things
differently is "jeopardizing their safety or mine". Please note
I'm not saying I see this attitude from you in what you're writing
here, just that I see this attitude as a problem in and of itself.


True, so true.

Well, I hope we are coming to some conclusion here. I have enjoyed this
exchange of comments and views. Certainly with only 130 hours of flying I am
no "expert" on what should or shouldn't be done. But that is why I hang out
in this and the RAS newsgroup...to learn and to share. I think we all have
something to contribute; good, bad, or indifferent. :-)

I am lucky, I guess, where I do my flying. While I fly out of a Class-C
airport, most of the PP training takes place at several different
uncontrolled airports in our area. When I did my training I did it during
the week. Fortunately, there were MANY times when I was the only airplane in
the pattern. In fact, even now, the flying I do is done during the week.
It's almost like having your own private airport regardless where you go.

Happy and safe flying.

Harry

EDR wrote in message ...
In article , Snowbird
wrote:
Sydney, tell us what airport it is so we can look at an airport diagram.

Sorry, didn't see this before

SET

Don't know if thihs link will work:
http://www.aopa.org/members/airports...identifier=SET

Rwy 36, 27, both left traffic

To someone who emailed me: my assessment of the conflicts w/
rwy 27 and 36 both in active use is 1) if planes are taking off/
climbing out at the same time, and life sucks 2) crosswind for
27 and a section of downwind for 36 3) potentially someone entering
downwind for 27 on a 45, with downwind for 36.

Cheers,
Sydney

Below is an email from the Luscombe List.

How do you get on the Luscombe List?

thanks,
Mitch
Luscombe 8A
Cessna 195 project