Using the magenta circles

"Richard Russell" wrote in message
...
Also, when referring to "pure" Classs G I should have been more clear
although I would be surprised if you didn't understand my intent.

Steve only "reads between the lines" when it suits him. His main goal is to
criticize and disagree, so the general rule is, if he can disagree with what
you wrote, he'll read it that way, and if he can disagree with what you
meant, he'll read it that way.

If you Google a bit, you'll see what I mean. You can find several posts
from a while back where he invested a large effort telling me what I meant,
rather than what I said, just the opposite of what he's doing here with you.

Don't let it bother you. It's just par for the course for Usenet. He
actually has a clue most of the time, so if you get past his annoying
habits, there's real information to be had.

Pete

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...

Those circles aren't to keep VFR pilots safe when the weather is
marginal.
They are to lower the floor of controlled airspace for the benefit of
IFR
pilots.

This accomplishes two things:
1. Allows ATC to provide control to lower altitudes, primarily
separation from other IFR aircraft.
2. Makes sure any there is sufficient visibility / cloud clearance
for visual separation techniques to be used between any
VFR aircraft that might be present.


Changing weather has no effect on the floor of controlled airspace.


There he goes again...

But I did not think he said anything about changing the floor of the
airspace for weather, he stated that the lower floor provides transistions
for IFR pilots to get close to the airport, and CLEAR OF VFR traffic in
marginal weather, that should be remaining in Class G and not Class E where
the approach may dump them off.

BT

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:vJqbc.69606$1I5.24219@fed1read01...

But I did not think he said anything about changing the floor of the
airspace for weather, he stated that the lower floor provides transistions
for IFR pilots to get close to the airport, and CLEAR OF VFR traffic in
marginal weather, that should be remaining in Class G and not Class E
where
the approach may dump them off.


He said; "Those circles aren't to keep VFR pilots safe when the weather is
marginal. They are to lower the floor of controlled airspace for the
benefit of IFR pilots."

Exactly.

Even I knew what he said as well as what he meant.

mike regish

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:vJqbc.69606$1I5.24219@fed1read01...

But I did not think he said anything about changing the floor of the
airspace for weather, he stated that the lower floor provides
transistions
for IFR pilots to get close to the airport, and CLEAR OF VFR traffic in
marginal weather, that should be remaining in Class G and not Class E
where
the approach may dump them off.


He said; "Those circles aren't to keep VFR pilots safe when the weather is
marginal. They are to lower the floor of controlled airspace for the
benefit of IFR pilots."

"Ace Pilot" wrote in message
om...

common use is doing T&Gs in the pattern below 700 feet AGL when the
weather is marginal. Other uses?

1. The altitude where controlled airspace begins can be a factor for an IFR
pilot selecting an airport at which to fly an instrument approach if he is
concerned about airplanes legally flying a traffic pattern 1 foot below him
when he breaks out of a cloud.

2. In areas with unusual and predictable weather patterns, i.e. a very thin
marine fog layer, some pilots depart IMC in Class G airspace in anticipation
of breakout out on top into VMC conditions before entering controlled
airspace -- not necessarily wise but legal nonetheless.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 18:52:43 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Richard Russell" wrote in message
.. .

I noted that Class G exists under the controlled spaces. I should
have been more clear but my intent was to delineate vertical
separations, not horizontal.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote
Magenta vignette denotes a vertical separation between Class E and Class G
airspace.


That statement is indeed true but I think most VFR pilots are aware of
that. What many are not aware of is what happens horizontally at the
outer border of the magenta vignette where the Class E with a 1200'
floor begins. This is not marked on charts in the northeast and
middle atlantic areas of the country.
Rich Russell

"Richard Russell" wrote in message
...

That statement is indeed true but I think most VFR pilots are aware of
that. What many are not aware of is what happens horizontally at the
outer border of the magenta vignette where the Class E with a 1200'
floor begins. This is not marked on charts in the northeast and
middle atlantic areas of the country.


It isn't marked anywhere in the country any more. It used to be, but blue
vignette showing controlled airspace beginning at 1200' AGL that abutted
magenta vignette was dropped a few years ago. It's now just understood to
be there. Grab a recent Sectional Aeronautical Chart, you'll find "Class E
airspace exists at 1200' AGL unless otherwise designated as shown above" in
the legend.

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 17:13:41 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Richard Russell" wrote in message
.. .

That statement is indeed true but I think most VFR pilots are aware of
that. What many are not aware of is what happens horizontally at the
outer border of the magenta vignette where the Class E with a 1200'
floor begins. This is not marked on charts in the northeast and
middle atlantic areas of the country.


It isn't marked anywhere in the country any more. It used to be, but blue
vignette showing controlled airspace beginning at 1200' AGL that abutted
magenta vignette was dropped a few years ago. It's now just understood to
be there. Grab a recent Sectional Aeronautical Chart, you'll find "Class E
airspace exists at 1200' AGL unless otherwise designated as shown above" in
the legend.


I was aware of the existence and configuration of all of the Class E
types, although I must admit when I was training I had one hell of a
time trying to figure it out. There are a number of CFIs out there
that either don't clearly understand it or cannot clearly explain it.

I was not aware of the note in the legend. Thanks for pointing that
out.
Rich Russell

Thanks, Richard. That's somewhat along the lines I was wondering
about. However, both of the cases you listed are for IFR flights.
Makes me wonder why, if this information is more useful to the IFR
pilot than the VFR pilot, is it on sectional charts when it sounds
like it would be more useful on low level enroute charts (although,
I'll be the first to admit that I have a sectional or WAC available
when flying IFR).

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message ws.com...
"Ace Pilot" wrote in message
om...

common use is doing T&Gs in the pattern below 700 feet AGL when the
weather is marginal. Other uses?

1. The altitude where controlled airspace begins can be a factor for an IFR
pilot selecting an airport at which to fly an instrument approach if he is
concerned about airplanes legally flying a traffic pattern 1 foot below him
when he breaks out of a cloud.

2. In areas with unusual and predictable weather patterns, i.e. a very thin
marine fog layer, some pilots depart IMC in Class G airspace in anticipation
of breakout out on top into VMC conditions before entering controlled
airspace -- not necessarily wise but legal nonetheless.

That was my impression, too, CJ. And I'm in the Midwest where we don't
have to worry about mountains. I just have a hard time picturing
someone following their progress on a sectional flying under a ceiling
of 1,000 feet and dipping below 700 feet AGL everytime they approach
an airport with a magenta circle around it.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
There are people who try to remain in class G airspace in order to stay VFR,
including those in the pattern, but I have found it to be impractical in
many respects. If it is that bad you spend too much time dodging clouds to
get any serious pattern work done. The terrain around here is very
mountainous, which severely restricts how far you can fly and stay VFR in
weather like that. In this area it seems mostly useful to seaplanes and
charter pilots flying around the San Juan Islands.