Camel

"vincent p. norris" wrote:

Yeah, I've heard and read that many times. The same was said about WW
II.

I've never heard that about WWII, but, in any case, it's not true. A couple things
*were* true about the WWII situation until about 1944; 1) pilots destroyed more
aircraft during training than during combat, and 2) most of the pilots in a given
class would not survive the war.

Just finished a book about LeRoy Grover, who enlisted in the RAF in 1941. Flew Spits
before transfering to the USAAF and finishing the war in P-47s. His preliminary
instruction was done in California. Slightly over half of his class survived the war,
but most did not become fighter pilots. Instruction in Spitfires was done at an OTU
in England. There were several crashes every day, and fatalities ran about 1 every 3
days. Of his class there of 42 pilots who graduated, 3 survived the war intact, 3
survived but were injured so badly they never flew again, and the rest were killed.

George Patterson
If you don't tell lies, you never have to remember what you said.

Vince, I'm not sure WWII training was as dangerous as that of WWI. I
don't see how it could have been. The trainers of WWI were a
hodgepodge of many types and few things were normalised as they are
now. They stalled abrubtly, had extremely steep power off descent and
were very unstable on the ground. In addition, the unreliability of
the engines was legendary. For a while, few individuals understood
how much training was necessary to qualify a person as a bonified
pilot.

I agree with that, Corky. In addition, pilots were reportedly put
into operational types such as Camels and sent into combat with very
few logged hours.

We had somewhat more than 200 hours in SNJs, including formation,
instrument and ACM flying and carrier qualification, before getting
into an operational type. Had the Navy put us into F4Us with only 20
or 30 hours in SNJs, no doubt most cadets would have killed
themselves. (It was called the "Ensign Eliminator" in any case.)

But the point I was making is that grossly exaggerated claims were
made about the fatality rate during WW II, and I am skeptical about
them, and therefore about WW I too.

vince norris

I've never heard that about WWII, but, in any case, it's not true. A couple things
*were* true about the WWII situation until about 1944; 1) pilots destroyed more
aircraft during training than during combat....

How do you know that? I find that hard to believe.

and 2) most of the pilots in a given class would not survive the war.

I can't believe that either, George. That means that fatalities
among pilots exeeded 50 percent.

Just finished a book about LeRoy Grover, who enlisted in the RAF in 1941. Flew Spits
before transfering to the USAAF and finishing the war in P-47s. His preliminary
instruction was done in California.

I don't understand that. Do you mean he was trained by, or for, the
RAF in California in 1941? I've never heard of such an operation.

Slightly over half of his class survived the war....

I can believe that losses were quite high among pilots who fought
through the entire war. OTOH, they were much lower among those who
got into combat only a month or two before VE or VJ day.

There were several crashes every day, and fatalities ran about 1 every 3
days. Of his class there of 42 pilots who graduated, 3 survived the war intact, 3
survived but were injured so badly they never flew again, and the rest were killed.

Ensign Gay, of Torpedo 8, could write that he was the only survivor of
his entire squadron; all the others were killed in just a few minutes,
in June 1942. You know that wasn't typical of U.S. Naval Aviators.

And as you may know, something like 98 percent of the residents of
Bedford, Virginia, who served in the army during WW II, were killed
in action on one day in June, 1944.

These cases demonstrate that you can't generalize from a small sample.

vince norris

Vincent

I was in a Navy tail hook Sq (VF-23) for a year. We had 13 pilots and
killed four in a little over a year (peace time). Three ashore and one
deployed to Westpac on the Yorktown.

In the flying units I was in for 28 years, I went to more funerals in
peace time than in war time. You have to parsec that statement as
there were more years of peace time than war time.

Flying is/was a dangerous game.

Big John


On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 23:00:15 -0400, vincent p. norris
wrote:

Some killed themselves, but most of them did not.

Sort of backwards. Most killed themselves, but some did not.

I have no numbers, and wonder if anyone has. But I doubt that 51% or
more killed themselves.

The loss rate during training was far higher than the loss rate in combat.

Yeah, I've heard and read that many times. The same was said about WW
II.

But I got to Pensacola only four years after VJ Day; and during the
year I was there, in Basic, with hundreds of cadets going through
training, only three fatalities occurred: two students, one
instructor.

I don't recall how many fatalities occurred during the six months I
was in Advanced. None occurred at NAS Corpus Christi, where I was,
but there might have been a couple at other fields.

We weren't flying Camels, of course, but we were flying the same
aircraft the Navy used during WW II.

But even if more pilots died learning to fly the Camel than died it
combat, that doesn't mean it was more than 51%.

vince norris

"vincent p. norris" wrote:

I can't believe that either, George. That means that fatalities
among pilots exeeded 50 percent.

That's correct for fighter pilots who entered combat prior to about 1944.

I don't understand that. Do you mean he was trained by, or for, the
RAF in California in 1941? I've never heard of such an operation.

He was trained by a contractor. A man named Clayton Knight served as a "headhunter"
for the RAF. IIRC, he did the same sort of thing for China, finding pilots for the
AVG. American RAF trainees trained in PT-17s and AT-6s in California before heading
to Canada, where they took ship for Britain. Gover's class graduated 14 pilots to
Canada in late 1941; 7 survived the war.

I can believe that losses were quite high among pilots who fought
through the entire war. OTOH, they were much lower among those who
got into combat only a month or two before VE or VJ day.

Which is why I said "prior to about 1944" in my post.

George Patterson
If you don't tell lies, you never have to remember what you said.

I was in a Navy tail hook Sq (VF-23) for a year. We had 13 pilots and
killed four in a little over a year (peace time). Three ashore and one
deployed to Westpac on the Yorktown.

I remember that we were told, while at Pensacola, that if a pilot
spent 20 years on a carrier, he had a .25 chance of being killed.

But no one, so far as I know, spent 20 years flying off a carrier.

After I got my wings, I spent 3.5 years flying in the Marine Corps,
2.5 at Cherry Point and one as a FAC at Camp Lejuene as a FAC.

I recall that there were four R4Q crashes, one F7F crash and two
single-engine crashes, all fatal. One F4U ditched, pilot lived. There
may have been more but that's all I can recall.

vince norris