Cessna buyers in So. Cal. beware !

Stu Gotts
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-I'd pay good money for tickets to see Berle kick that wining Jim
-Weir's ass at OSH. God knows he's had it coming for years. Would be
-great fodder for his next book, a best seller for sure. Maybe we can
-set it up as a charity event for the Poberesny benefit and award fund.
-The boys can never have enough personal funds nor awards for their
-work.



First of all, it is WHINING, not wining. Second, it is POBEREZNY, not
Poberesny. Third, my schedule will be posted in the EAA Convention Guide; you
know where to come find me.

Let's examine the facts:

Berle claimed that there were several "complex and expensive ADs" that had not
been complied with. Nowhere in the body of the text does he describe or list
these ADs. However, just to keep the record straight, here is my software's
printout of the applicable airframe ADs on a Cessna 175. Since Berle did not
specify 175, A, B, or C, I chose the earliest model to be sure I captured all of
the old ADs as well.

If anybody finds an AIRFRAME AD that my software missed, please post it here in
the spirit of safety and completeness. We can do engine, too, if you like, but
Berle's only squawks that I saw were airframe related.

Company
Manufacturer CESSNA AIRCRAFT CORP.
Model 175
Tail #
Serial #
Tach Time
A/C Cert. Date
Total Time
AD Number Description
62-22-01 VACUUM PUMP MODIFICATION/
*69-15-03 MUFFLER ASSEMBLY/
*71-22-02 CRACKS IN NOSE GEAR FORK/
73-17-01 FUEL TRANSFER PUMP PLACARD/
*74-06-02 AVCON MUFFLERS/
79-08-03 ELECTRICAL SYSTEM/
79-10-14 R1 FUEL TANK VENTING/
82-07-02 ENGINE CRANKCASE BREATHER/
86-26-04 SHOULDER HARNESS ADJUSTER/
*87-20-03 R2 SEAT TRACKS/
97-01-13 COLLAPSED HOSE/
99-27-02 FUEL SELECTOR VALVE/
* Indicates possible recurring inspections Page 1 of 1


He also complains of a major repair that he was not told about. With all of his
"experience", he didn't know that the first question out of the box on the phone
should have been "what is the major damage history?" I think not, nor does he
claim that the owner lied to him on the question that was not asked.

Let's take a look at the specific items that Berle was not pleased with:

Seat rails near or probably beyond the wear limit. Cessna did not
build seat

We do not deal in "probably" in this business. Nor can we demand that something
be replaced when it is "near" a limit. Limits are just that...the point at
which something has to be dealt with. The AD on seat tracks (*87-20-03-R2) is
very specific. If Berle had his precision pin set with him, he could have been
very specific that the rail was or was not within limits. Eyeball guessing
doesn't cut it.


Flap tracks worn to or beyond safe limits.
There is a big AD on this.

And Cessna's definition of safe limits is? You had the Cessna repair manual
with you that gave the limits? And the AD number you refer to is?


Frozen or over tightened aileron rod ball joints.

Frozen? Probably. An airplane sitting outside, even in San Diego, gathers a
bit of corrosion inside the mechanisms. That's why Mouse Milk and/or LPS-1 is a
staple of any mechanic's chemistry shelf. Why don't you explain to us how you
can overtighten a Cessna aileron ball joint and have it clamp down on the pivot
bolt? Without chucking the ball joint up in a lathe and cutting another inch or
so of threads on the ball joint, of course. If you are talking about tightening
up the pivot bolt, you'd have deformed the aileron attach bracket so severely
that it would have been obvious to the casual observer. Which was it?


By the way, speaking of primary flight controls,
I noticed that the pilot's
side control yoke could be moved up and down
a couple of inches in the
instrument panel bushing.

You may have one here, although I doubt (once more) you had a definitive answer
as to how loose is too loose from an authoritative source (like the Cessna fixit
manual). And, if you could move it UP and DOWN a couple of inches, you have a
four inch total travel. Somehow I think the case is overstated here -- you'd be
bumping the gyros going up and the radio stack going down with this much
mickeymotion.


The engine cowl was really shoddily repaired
, using hardware store pop rivets and scab patches.
Any decent repair would have used inside or
flush patches, and regardless of where the patch
is the FAR's REQUIRE the use of aircraft rivets.

Shoddy and unairworthy are two separate and distinct conditions. One is
subjective (eye of the beholder) and one is objective (written in precise
language). Cessna allows scab (outside) patches on pretty nearly the entire
sheet metal airframe, and who are you to say that a "decent" repair has to
follow your personal desires when the manufacturer says different? And there
ARE aircraft approved "pop rivets". Whether or not these are of that variety,
I'd either have to see for myself OR look what the person who did the repair put
in the logbook for materials used. I'd hardly call somebody a Bozo when you
appear to be the Bozee.


Finally, you decided that I didn't deserve to know
that the whole airplane was windstorm-flipped
out of the tiedown RECENTLY and an entire wing was
replaced, nosegear mounts, and other parts. Any
potential buyer would have wanted to know that
kind of thing before they traveled any distance or
burned up a very rare day off of work. Wings get
replaced all the time, and if it's done right
it's not a problem. But you OWE a potential buyer that
information before they make arrangements to drive
250 miles round trip.

And you owe the owner the simple question of major damage history on the phone
before you set out on the trip. I stand by my original statement...you thought
you were going to buy a creampuff for a lemon's price and you found that you had
a lemon for a lemon's price. What's your squawk?

Now, would I annual this airplane? Hell, I'm 600 miles north and not the least
bit interested. However, from the words you wrote, I'd be hard pressed to find
something unairworthy in your diatribe. You got suckered, plain and simple.
Barnum was right.


Jim









Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

You would probably find a lot to squawk about on my mechanical machine work. I
never set myself out to be a machinist, nor a gauge tech, nor have I ever
claimed to do flawless mechanical work.

And I've been inspected by the best, and always learned a thing or two when
somebody found an error in my work; I try never to make the same goof twice
(two marriages notwithstanding {;-) ).

Jim


(Lennie the Lurker)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-
-
-Just a retired mechanical inspector/machinist/gage technician
-
-that would probably have no problem making you very angry were I to
-inspect your work. I've done it to the best.




Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

Jules
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-So you are saying you would sign it off?

How the hell would I know? I'm 600 miles north, and not the least bit
interested in looking at a ratty 175. What I'm saying is that in all the
squawks a bitches in the original post, I have yet to see something that is
definitively unairworthy BY THE BOOK.


-
-Are you warning people or advertising?


None of the above. I'm in the enviable position of being able to pick and
choose my friends for whom I will do inspections; I don't have to work for
anybody who comes through the front door with an attitude.

Jim



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

Bingo. Finally, somebody understands. Good on 'ya Richard.


Jim



"Richard Kaplan"
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-
-Why do you think this airplane is "super low priced"?
-
-Why would it be priced that low if it were airworthy?
-
-
-



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

There are those of us who have done them for free...like for the widow of the
poor ******* that died of cancer within three weeks of finding it, so the kids
would have food for the next couple of months...

And there are those of us who wouldn't do one for ten thousand dollars for a
whining son of a bitch that wouldn't be happy if we subcontracted him out with a
hooker while we worked on his plane...

Most of us are somewhere in between. Some more, some less. Some of us refuse
to WORK on airplanes if something is wrong; we got out of the fixit game when we
got the inspector's ticket. Some of us will only do the work if the owner is
willing to get greasy. Some of us will swap annuals for goodies instead of
money. Some of us do it for the sheer joy and unalloyed bliss of it.

Some of us do it because we are captured with the joy and beauty of flight
itself.

Jim



"Richard Kaplan"
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-If my mechanic offers to do an annual inspection on my airplane for $49,
-should I take it at face value or assume it is pencil-whipped?
-



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

The misspellings were for your benefit. Thought you would understand
them better and I could give a **** about how da and lad spell their
name. Thanks for the invite, tough guy and yes, maybe I will look you
up and give you a bitch slap for all the time you spend trying to
discredit everything Berle says or does.

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 10:30:08 -0700, Jim Weir wrote:

Stu Gotts
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-I'd pay good money for tickets to see Berle kick that wining Jim
-Weir's ass at OSH. God knows he's had it coming for years. Would be
-great fodder for his next book, a best seller for sure. Maybe we can
-set it up as a charity event for the Poberesny benefit and award fund.
-The boys can never have enough personal funds nor awards for their
-work.



First of all, it is WHINING, not wining. Second, it is POBEREZNY, not
Poberesny. Third, my schedule will be posted in the EAA Convention Guide; you
know where to come find me.

Let's examine the facts:

Berle claimed that there were several "complex and expensive ADs" that had not
been complied with. Nowhere in the body of the text does he describe or list
these ADs. However, just to keep the record straight, here is my software's
printout of the applicable airframe ADs on a Cessna 175. Since Berle did not
specify 175, A, B, or C, I chose the earliest model to be sure I captured all of
the old ADs as well.

If anybody finds an AIRFRAME AD that my software missed, please post it here in
the spirit of safety and completeness. We can do engine, too, if you like, but
Berle's only squawks that I saw were airframe related.

Company
Manufacturer CESSNA AIRCRAFT CORP.
Model 175
Tail #
Serial #
Tach Time
A/C Cert. Date
Total Time
AD Number Description
62-22-01 VACUUM PUMP MODIFICATION/
*69-15-03 MUFFLER ASSEMBLY/
*71-22-02 CRACKS IN NOSE GEAR FORK/
73-17-01 FUEL TRANSFER PUMP PLACARD/
*74-06-02 AVCON MUFFLERS/
79-08-03 ELECTRICAL SYSTEM/
79-10-14 R1 FUEL TANK VENTING/
82-07-02 ENGINE CRANKCASE BREATHER/
86-26-04 SHOULDER HARNESS ADJUSTER/
*87-20-03 R2 SEAT TRACKS/
97-01-13 COLLAPSED HOSE/
99-27-02 FUEL SELECTOR VALVE/
* Indicates possible recurring inspections Page 1 of 1


He also complains of a major repair that he was not told about. With all of his
"experience", he didn't know that the first question out of the box on the phone
should have been "what is the major damage history?" I think not, nor does he
claim that the owner lied to him on the question that was not asked.

Let's take a look at the specific items that Berle was not pleased with:

Seat rails near or probably beyond the wear limit. Cessna did not
build seat

We do not deal in "probably" in this business. Nor can we demand that something
be replaced when it is "near" a limit. Limits are just that...the point at
which something has to be dealt with. The AD on seat tracks (*87-20-03-R2) is
very specific. If Berle had his precision pin set with him, he could have been
very specific that the rail was or was not within limits. Eyeball guessing
doesn't cut it.


Flap tracks worn to or beyond safe limits.
There is a big AD on this.

And Cessna's definition of safe limits is? You had the Cessna repair manual
with you that gave the limits? And the AD number you refer to is?


Frozen or over tightened aileron rod ball joints.

Frozen? Probably. An airplane sitting outside, even in San Diego, gathers a
bit of corrosion inside the mechanisms. That's why Mouse Milk and/or LPS-1 is a
staple of any mechanic's chemistry shelf. Why don't you explain to us how you
can overtighten a Cessna aileron ball joint and have it clamp down on the pivot
bolt? Without chucking the ball joint up in a lathe and cutting another inch or
so of threads on the ball joint, of course. If you are talking about tightening
up the pivot bolt, you'd have deformed the aileron attach bracket so severely
that it would have been obvious to the casual observer. Which was it?


By the way, speaking of primary flight controls,
I noticed that the pilot's
side control yoke could be moved up and down
a couple of inches in the
instrument panel bushing.

You may have one here, although I doubt (once more) you had a definitive answer
as to how loose is too loose from an authoritative source (like the Cessna fixit
manual). And, if you could move it UP and DOWN a couple of inches, you have a
four inch total travel. Somehow I think the case is overstated here -- you'd be
bumping the gyros going up and the radio stack going down with this much
mickeymotion.


The engine cowl was really shoddily repaired
, using hardware store pop rivets and scab patches.
Any decent repair would have used inside or
flush patches, and regardless of where the patch
is the FAR's REQUIRE the use of aircraft rivets.

Shoddy and unairworthy are two separate and distinct conditions. One is
subjective (eye of the beholder) and one is objective (written in precise
language). Cessna allows scab (outside) patches on pretty nearly the entire
sheet metal airframe, and who are you to say that a "decent" repair has to
follow your personal desires when the manufacturer says different? And there
ARE aircraft approved "pop rivets". Whether or not these are of that variety,
I'd either have to see for myself OR look what the person who did the repair put
in the logbook for materials used. I'd hardly call somebody a Bozo when you
appear to be the Bozee.


Finally, you decided that I didn't deserve to know
that the whole airplane was windstorm-flipped
out of the tiedown RECENTLY and an entire wing was
replaced, nosegear mounts, and other parts. Any
potential buyer would have wanted to know that
kind of thing before they traveled any distance or
burned up a very rare day off of work. Wings get
replaced all the time, and if it's done right
it's not a problem. But you OWE a potential buyer that
information before they make arrangements to drive
250 miles round trip.

And you owe the owner the simple question of major damage history on the phone
before you set out on the trip. I stand by my original statement...you thought
you were going to buy a creampuff for a lemon's price and you found that you had
a lemon for a lemon's price. What's your squawk?

Now, would I annual this airplane? Hell, I'm 600 miles north and not the least
bit interested. However, from the words you wrote, I'd be hard pressed to find
something unairworthy in your diatribe. You got suckered, plain and simple.
Barnum was right.


Jim









Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

Jim Weir wrote in message . ..
You would probably find a lot to squawk about on my mechanical machine work. I
never set myself out to be a machinist, nor a gauge tech, nor have I ever
claimed to do flawless mechanical work.

And I've been inspected by the best, and always learned a thing or two when
somebody found an error in my work; I try never to make the same goof twice
(two marriages notwithstanding {;-) ).

Jim


(Lennie the Lurker)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-
-
-Just a retired mechanical inspector/machinist/gage technician
-
-that would probably have no problem making you very angry were I to
-inspect your work. I've done it to the best.

And please note, not one ****ing word trying to justify his dislike
for someone issuing a warning to others that may look at the plane
less thoroughly than Bill did. It's not the person you don't like,
Jim, it's him giving a warning what to look out for. Too many major
repairs were not disclosed, which is dishonest in the nth degree. A
lot of other major work needed doing, not disclosed beforehand either.
WHich would equate to me selling my nine inch South Bend, then
telling the buyer that it has been backed over with a tractor. (I
figure I'm the sixth owner since then, and it should be running by the
end of July, but there's no way I'd try to pass it off as anything but
what it is.) I don't do business that way.

(Lennie the Lurker)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-And please note, not one ****ing word trying to justify his dislike
-for someone issuing a warning to others that may look at the plane
-less thoroughly than Bill did.

I don't do ****ing words. I never considered ****ing a spectator sport or a
word game.

Did you really LOOK at his post, Lennie? All the bitches about the airplane
were of the "I didn't like the way it looked." Not one single, "this measured
outside of the limits set by the xyz approved data sheet."

Now the owner emailing or phoning him with threats... THAT was plain dumb and
stupid on the owner's part. Had that OWNER posted here about this idiot that
looked at his airplane and what he had done about it, I'd'a reamed the owner a
new asshole with a wire brush. What I saw here were two jerks who deserved to
run into each other.


It's not the person you don't like,
-Jim, it's him giving a warning what to look out for.

I could give a rat's hiney about the warning. The dislike was that Berle had
absolutely no factual information on which to base his rant. He didn't like the
seat rails, but didn't measure them. He didn't like the aileron ball joints but
had no idea why they were frozen. He didn't like the flap mechanisms but had no
data on which to base his complaints...yada...yada...yada...


Too many major
-repairs were not disclosed, which is dishonest in the nth degree.

What not disclosed? Did Berle ASK about major damage or major repairs on the
phone and was told a lie? Anybody above moron in this business asks that
question as the first order of business. He never said the person lied to him;
Berle was too stupid to ask the question.


A
-lot of other major work needed doing, not disclosed beforehand either.

What major work needed to be done? Quote me from Berle's post, will you? All I
saw were some rantings from a person who expected to see a show airplane for a
beater price. He got what he bargained for...and never spent a cent of money in
the process...other than gas money which he quite easily could have avoided with
the proper questions on the phone.



- WHich would equate to me selling my nine inch South Bend, then
-telling the buyer that it has been backed over with a tractor. (I
-figure I'm the sixth owner since then, and it should be running by the
-end of July, but there's no way I'd try to pass it off as anything but
-what it is.) I don't do business that way.

You got a nine inch South Bend for sale? I'm in the market.


Jim


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in
s.com:


Why do you think this airplane is "super low priced"?

Why would it be priced that low if it were airworthy?

What does the price of a plane have to do with its airworthiness? When did
the FAA include price of the airplane in its definition of airworthiness?

"Juan Jimenez" wrote in message
...
"Richard Kaplan" wrote in
s.com:


Why do you think this airplane is "super low priced"?

Why would it be priced that low if it were airworthy?

What does the price of a plane have to do with its airworthiness?

Maybe the fact that price is usually a measure of "suitability for a
purpose"?

When did
the FAA include price of the airplane in its definition of airworthiness?

It doesn't, "economic reality" does.

(Geez...you should have learned this before entering elementary school)