"Cleared Straight-In Runway X; Report Y Miles Final"

Oops, meant to say "the X-axis aligned at a 45 deg angle to the runway
centerline).

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
news:3xqTc.37453$ih.9766@fed1read07...
GB, the 45 degree cone Doug was referring to encompassed both sides of the
extended centerline.

Imagine a large X and Y axis superimposed on any airport (with the X-axis
aligned with the runway centerline). There are thus four quadrants. If
at
any time I am moving in respect to the airport in one of those quadrants,
I
will either be in a "downwind" general direction, a "base" direction, a
"final/upwind" direction, and a "crosswind" direction. The "Final/Upwind"
direction represents the domain of what consitutes a "final" in my way of
thinking (which appears to be shared by at least three ATC controllers).

If you approach an airport at 30 degrees off the extended centerline
(something that I'm sure most of you have done thousands of times--as I
have), what leg are you flying?

Regards, Jim

"Flydive" wrote in message
...
Jim Cummiskey wrote:


(2) At Doug's airport, they consider every approach within a 45
degree
cone of the centerline to comply with the "Make Straight In, Runway X"
instruction. Clearly, there is NO OBLIGATION to intercept the
centerline at
any PARTICULAR point (although it must be intercepted at SOME point to
land
the plane; which I clearly did in this case--at ~1/2 mile from the
numbers).


Well if you were approaching with a 30 degrees angle you were in a 60
degrees cone, outside Doug's definition.

GB

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
news:qHoTc.37435$ih.16698@fed1read07...

Nope. I was at a position EXACTLY where I claimed to be. I was 5 miles
from the airport, and I WAS on final. Thus "5 Miles Final."


You're changing your story. In your initial message you wrote; "At 5 miles
from the airport (still offset from the centerline), I report '5 mile
final'." So which is it? Were you on final when you reported or were you
offset from the centerline?



As I have attempted to point out numerous times, the real issue is: "Must
you be on the extended centerline to be on final?" You believe the answer
is "Yes." I belive that the answer is "No."


You say that like it's a matter of opinion.

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
news:g_oTc.37437$ih.15436@fed1read07...

In respect to my sources, I believe the opinions of a Class C "ATC
Procedures Specialist" at one of the business airports in Southern
California, in conjunction with the Tower Manager at the airport where the
supposed infraction took place trump any other source offered on this
forum
thus far. Indeed, the regulations (FAR and Order 7110.65) are often less
than crystal-clear on sticky issues such as these (that's why the FAA
publishes a FAQ to explain the FAR; if only we had a FAQ to explain the
FAQ g).


But the FAR and FAA Order 7110.65 are crystal clear on this issue.



In short, both of these credentialed and informed gentlemen believe
that you do NOT have to be on the extended centerline to be on "final."
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I share their view.


Pertinent documentation indicates that the three of you are wrong.

Appreciate the feedback, Maria. Good points, and I understand and agree
with your comments about the FARs and the expectations of pilots regarding
position reports.

However, a few comments:

acknowledging WHY she felt it was important to do so, you are ticked-off
that
she mentioned it, concerned about not being "wrong", and playing semantics
with
the arguments. If this isn't just a great exercise in trolling, I hope,
for the
safety of everyone who shares the sky with you, that you get over it soon.

Actually, ATC Doug has a theory WHY she felt it was important for her to
call it to my attention. According to Doug, KPRC is a training facility,
and they have a lot of inexperienced controllers there undergoing training.
As I reported earlier, there was no radio traffic (to my recollection)
within five minutes either side of my initial radio call and my wheels
touching down. Since I was responsible for my own separation, I was quite
attentive to traffic. I don't think there was any other traffic in the
entire Class D airspace. Doug thinks the controller was "pulling my
chain"--perhaps ensuring I understood the domain of her authority on a slow
Sunday morning. But, according to ATC Paul, the Tower Manager, HIS
controller was absolutely WRONG! Does his vote count? Or, am I still just
a troller?

So, yes Maria. I am very concerned about "not being wrong" when I fly. The
consequences are too high. The point is: if it IS perfectly proper
procedure to fly "angled finals" and report them as "finals," then shouldn't
we pilots began to do a little better job of scanning the entire final
quadrant vice only checking only the extended centerline?

So, it has nothing to do with the "semantics of the arguments." It has to
do with coming up with a common language so that when a Controller says X,
the Pilot understands X (and vice-versa). The bottom line is that in this
case we had a clear disconnect. And, three members of the ATC community
agree that "flying directly to the airport, aligning myself with the runway,
and landing" while reporting "5 miles final" at five miles offset from the
centerline was PERFECTLY correct (indeed very COMMON behavior in the
hundreds of airports I've experienced).

Or maybe, you're saying I should have reported "5 miles" only? "5 miles
NE?" How about "5 miles angled final?" Or, is your position, "You can't
fly an angled final ever!?" If so, in the absence of a specific
controller's "Report 'instruction,'" what are you proposing is the minimum
distance every pilot should be on the extended centerline (less I spoil the
the safety of the national airspace system for everyone)? And, what do I
SAY to avoid crashing into someone? Gosh, all us people who have the
arrogance to occasionally fly without radios must really upset all of you
folks who's safety is compromised without continuous position reports. What
happened to "See and Avoid" and "Keep that head on a swivel?"

Regards, Jim

"MariaSanguini" wrote in message
...
IMO, you don't have to be an "expert" on interpreting the FARs ... the
input,
expert or not, of everyone who flies is important on this one. Obviously,
we
should always be scanning everywhere, but there *are* specific areas where
majority of us *initially* look for traffic said to be in various stages
of the
traffic pattern, i.e., *on the extended runway centerline* for other
"traffic
on straight-in final", and it's important to your own safety and the
safety of
others that you *are* there when your position is announced, either by
yourself
or by an ATC.

The issue isn't who is "right" or "wrong", but rather the arrogant,
disappointing attitude that being "right" makes it okay to put yourself in
a
spot where you **KNOW** other pilots won't expect you to be if you are
instructed to make "straight-in" final. The ATC thought it was enough of a
concern to call it to your attention ... instead of understanding and
acknowledging WHY she felt it was important to do so, you are ticked-off
that
she mentioned it, concerned about not being "wrong", and playing semantics
with
the arguments. If this isn't just a great exercise in trolling, I hope,
for the
safety of everyone who shares the sky with you, that you get over it soon.

You're changing your story. In your initial message you wrote; "At 5
miles
from the airport (still offset from the centerline), I report '5 mile
final'." So which is it? Were you on final when you reported or were you
offset from the centerline?

Both. I WAS on Final, and I WAS offset from the centerline. What a
concept!

You say that like it's a matter of opinion.

It certainly appears to be on this forum (and unlike some of you "Final is A
Single Degree" Club members, I at least understand your opinion). Do you
understand mine? (as well as the opinons of those members of the ATC
community that I am basing my position on)?

Regards, Jim


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
news:qHoTc.37435$ih.16698@fed1read07...

Nope. I was at a position EXACTLY where I claimed to be. I was 5 miles
from the airport, and I WAS on final. Thus "5 Miles Final."


You're changing your story. In your initial message you wrote; "At 5
miles
from the airport (still offset from the centerline), I report '5 mile
final'." So which is it? Were you on final when you reported or were you
offset from the centerline?



As I have attempted to point out numerous times, the real issue is:
"Must
you be on the extended centerline to be on final?" You believe the
answer
is "Yes." I belive that the answer is "No."


You say that like it's a matter of opinion.

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
news:ZspTc.37445$ih.14790@fed1read07...

Thanks, Steve--you've made some good points. Interestingly, Doug
quoted the exact paragraph, 3-10-1.g, to illustrate his point that it
WASN'T standard phraseology.


That would indicate he does not understand the paragraph.



I think you have presented yourself as a working Tower ATC.
If you don't mind, what class of Tower do you work at?


Class of tower?



Are you a "Procedures Specialist?"


Nope.



What's your contact information?


I don't understand that question either.



Not that I'm questioning you, but unfortunately, ATC doesn't have the
same public-access database we can use to validate someone's expertise.
I also know ATC has various levels of assignment, competency and
experience (as obviously do pilots). Could you please describe yours
for the group so we can assess your relative credibility to Doug and Paul?


I work at Green Bay Tower/TRACON, the airspace is Class C. I've been here
for twelve years, I was at Chicago ARTCC for nine years prior.

Why is it a question of credibility? Anyone can come here and claim a high
level of experience. The point is what Doug and Paul are telling you is
contrary to the book.



Steve, I would recommend you contact Doug and Paul directly (I will supply
their contact info directly to you if desired). Perhaps you three could
work it out and share what you discover with the pilots on this forum. It
is distressing to me (although not unexpected) that something so
fundamental
as the question "Must a final approach be on the extended centerline to be
considered a final?," is generating such confusion--especially in the ATC
community. Let's work to get this resolved.


There's nothing to be resolved. What Doug and Paul are telling you is
contrary to FAA Order 7110.65. That makes them wrong.



You wrote, "At 5 miles from the airport (still offset from the
centerline), I report '5 mile final'." How did you measure your distance
then?

GPS in this case. The 5 miles I reported was accurate. The issue is
whether I was "on final."


No, it's not. You indicated in your first message that you were offset from
the runway centerline by thirty degrees when you reported "5 mile final".
You were not on final when you made that report.



Do you consider yourself aligned with the runway when your nose
is cocked 30 degrees from the centerline?


Mabye. There is something called crab g.


Let me rephrase the question. Do you consider yourself aligned with the
runway when your track is 30 degrees from the centerline?



Which means you haven't learned a thing from this discussion. So
what then was your purpose in starting this thread?


Well, please re-read my message again for my purpose.


If your purpose was made clear in your message I wouldn't have had to ask
the question.



And, if you're
implying that I can learn something ONLY if I agree with YOU, you're
mistaken. Dare I say you might be able to learn something too? Gosh, how
impudent of me.


You insist your position is correct despite the fact that all pertinent
documentation indicates you're wrong. That's why I asked.

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
news:XlrTc.37461$ih.19822@fed1read07...

Actually, ATC Doug has a theory WHY she felt it was important for her to
call it to my attention. According to Doug, KPRC is a training facility,
and they have a lot of inexperienced controllers there undergoing
training.
As I reported earlier, there was no radio traffic (to my recollection)
within five minutes either side of my initial radio call and my wheels
touching down. Since I was responsible for my own separation, I was quite
attentive to traffic. I don't think there was any other traffic in the
entire Class D airspace. Doug thinks the controller was "pulling my
chain"--perhaps ensuring I understood the domain of her authority on a
slow
Sunday morning. But, according to ATC Paul, the Tower Manager, HIS
controller was absolutely WRONG! Does his vote count? Or, am I still
just
a troller?


Some people just do not handle authority well, that may be the case with
this controller. If there was no other traffic she had no reason to require
you to adjust your flight path in any way. Perhaps that's what ATC Paul and
ATC Doug mean when they say the controller was wrong. Nontheless, her
instruction to report a five mile final was a valid one and you did not
comply with it.



So, yes Maria. I am very concerned about "not being wrong" when I
fly. The consequences are too high. The point is: if it IS perfectly
proper
procedure to fly "angled finals" and report them as "finals," then
shouldn't
we pilots began to do a little better job of scanning the entire final
quadrant vice only checking only the extended centerline?


But it's not proper procedure to fly "angled finals" and report them as
"finals". "Final" has a specific meaning and is defined in the
Pilot/Controller Glossary to ensure pilots are on the same page when they
use the term "final".



So, it has nothing to do with the "semantics of the arguments." It has to
do with coming up with a common language so that when a Controller
says X, the Pilot understands X (and vice-versa).


That's been done! It's in the P/CG!

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
news:3xqTc.37453$ih.9766@fed1read07...

GB, the 45 degree cone Doug was referring to encompassed both sides
of the extended centerline.


A 45 degree cone encompassing both sides of the extended centerline would be
offset 22.5 degrees from the centerline on each side. Your 30 degree offset
put you outside of that.

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
news:YqrTc.37462$ih.26440@fed1read07...

You're changing your story. In your initial message you wrote; "At
5 miles from the airport (still offset from the centerline), I report '5
mile final'." So which is it? Were you on final when you reported
or were you offset from the centerline?


Both. I WAS on Final, and I WAS offset from the centerline. What a
concept!


Impossible. If you're offset from the centerline you're not on final.



You say that like it's a matter of opinion.


It certainly appears to be on this forum (and unlike some of you "Final is
A
Single Degree" Club members, I at least understand your opinion). Do you
understand mine? (as well as the opinons of those members of the ATC
community that I am basing my position on)?


It's not a matter of opinion. Others in this forum understand what "final"
means, you clearly do not.

Jim Cummiskey wrote:
Oops, meant to say "the X-axis aligned at a 45 deg angle to the runway
centerline).

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
news:3xqTc.37453$ih.9766@fed1read07...

GB, the 45 degree cone Doug was referring to encompassed both sides of the
extended centerline.

Imagine a large X and Y axis superimposed on any airport (with the X-axis
aligned with the runway centerline). There are thus four quadrants. If

at

any time I am moving in respect to the airport in one of those quadrants,

I

will either be in a "downwind" general direction, a "base" direction, a
"final/upwind" direction, and a "crosswind" direction. The "Final/Upwind"
direction represents the domain of what consitutes a "final" in my way of
thinking (which appears to be shared by at least three ATC controllers).

If you approach an airport at 30 degrees off the extended centerline
(something that I'm sure most of you have done thousands of times--as I
have), what leg are you flying?

Regards, Jim


Ok, now you are saying 45 degrees each side of the extended centerline.

So if then I call downwind the controller would say something like:

" You are number 2, number one is a c172, between 10 and 2 oclock, 7
miles, do you have him in sight?"

Well a pretty big slice of sky to look for you.

Yes, you said there was no other traffic, but this is not the point.

GB