Run-in with Chicago Center

In article TSKUc.320508$JR4.111734@attbi_s54, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

The main change? The AvMap. It displays towers so clearly on that big
color screen, that you'd have to be a complete dunce to hit one.

Getting vertical obstructions into databases is a huge huge problem.
Please don't assume that AvMap has them all.

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

Bob Noel wrote:
In article TSKUc.320508$JR4.111734@attbi_s54, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:


The main change? The AvMap. It displays towers so clearly on that big
color screen, that you'd have to be a complete dunce to hit one.


Getting vertical obstructions into databases is a huge huge problem.
Please don't assume that AvMap has them all.

Why is it a huge problem. At worst the FAA database can be used.

This whole thing could have easily blown way out of
proportion, with the "left hand not knowing what the right hand was
doing" -- and I might well have gotten a letter about it at some later
date -- when it would have been MUCH harder to prove (or disprove) anything.

Would not have happened if you filed IFR.

METARS showed some reporting stations in the 1900
overcast range, but most were at 2200 or better, and radar was clear


As we approached Dubuque's Class Delta airspace, the ceilings dropped to
their expected low-point of the trip (the Mississippi River valley usually
creates its own little weather pattern.

I had to remain at 1900
feet to be legal.

How did you stay legal (500' below clouds) at 1900" if ceilings were 220' and
sometimes lower?


John

Actually one of the Class D's does (Morristown), though it's just a feed
from KJFK.

--
Guy Elden Jr.


"Jeremy Lew" wrote in message
...
Really, they have no business "approving" a frequency change if you're not
in their airspace. Do they have radar there?

"Guy Elden Jr." wrote in message
...
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
newsFKUc.182853$eM2.74223@attbi_s51...
Not required. Sometimes towers want to know when your clear their
airspace, sometimes they don't care.

Yeah, I used to tell Class D towers when I was clear all the time,
till
a
controller somewhat sarcastically responded "Uh, okay
niner-niner-three."

From his tone of voice it was obvious that he really didn't care (and
was,
in fact, somewhat annoyed that I called him), so I no longer bother.

Well it really depends on where you're at. Around here, two of the
busier
Class D airports definitely appreciate a call when you're clear. I just
pipe
up very briefly with, "53K is clear to the northeast" and usually get a
"frequency change approved good day" response. Can't hurt.

--
Guy Elden Jr.

Heh, maybe as far south as Raleigh you can fly direct, but I have yet to
ever receive a clearance in the northeast that didn't involve a fairly
complicated, circuitous route. Normally I can negotiate once I get outside
the NY Class B and get some better routings, but it's nigh impossible to
file and fly direct around here.

I was very surprised on the way back from Raleigh a few weeks ago, however,
when I was negotiating with clearance at RDU on the ground. Lots of bad
weather around Richmond and D.C. meant only a narrow line through the
storms, and the route I originally got took me right through the bad stuff.
I called up a couple minutes later (while still parked at the ramp) and
asked if I could get a better route. They asked what I wanted, so I said
"direct Reading", and they approved it! (well, the computer did at least).
Of course as soon as I was handed off to Potomac approach things got a
little dicey, and no more direct Reading, but fortunately the controller had
steered some planes through a gap in the weather, all reporting smooth
sailing, so I took his advice and got around the nasty stuff. Always good to
have the better radar of approach guiding you through weather than center
(at least that's what I learned by watching the ASF DVD about thunderstorm
avoidance I got in the mail a few weeks ago).

--
Guy Elden Jr.


"Maule Driver" wrote in message
r.com...
And if you file/request direct - you'll fly direct. When I go from
Raleigh
to Florida, I tend to flyer a straighter line IFR than VFR - I'll tend to
avoid the MOAs and stuff VFR.

It's easier to get radar weather help too.

"Guy Elden Jr." wrote in message
news
I agree about the increase in safety. I don't tempt fates unless there's
a
clear line through thunderstorms, one that is visible above the cloud
tops,
and ice is just a simple no-go unless the clouds are nice and high (or
broken). I actually haven't even bothered trying to fly in winter if
there
are clouds near or above the freezing level.

I also realized something... time spent on pre-season football could be
_much_ better spent on an IFR ticket for getting to the _real_ games
later
in the season! :-) Now that I've had my instrument ticket for over a
year,
I've found that I use it all the time, even in weather that is very
clear
and very visible. I like to fly long distances (done New Jersey to
Atlanta
twice now round-trip), and have found that if I'd just gone direct
versus
flying the airways I would've saved maybe 5 - 10 minutes tops on each
leg.
Not enough by far to leave behind the higher safety factor that IFR
offers.
You get separated from all IFR traffic, and usually get calls about VFR
traffic. But even if you don't get a VFR call, the number of VFR pilots
who
fly above about 2 - 3,000 feet AGL is much, much smaller than those who
fly
closer to the ground. I can't even remember the last time I got a
traffic
call for VFR traffic while flying IFR anywhere above a cruising altitude
of
4,000 ft.

Another thing to consider is that on those marginal days, you'll still
be
able to climb to a nice, comfortable cruising altitude and get better
fuel
economy... not to mention a much smoother ride, and depending on
direction,
a stiff tailwind to boot. The extra training alone will help improve
your
skills, which is always a good thing as we all continue to use our
"licenses
to learn".

--
Guy Elden Jr.


"Maule Driver" wrote in message
r.com...
Jay, the time thing is a bear.

But while you may not cancel many flights that you may "feel
comfortable
with flying IFR", you will make more of those flights that you do make
"more
comfortably" IFR. More safely too.

Ironically, IFR you will spend more time in the sun rather than among
the
attennaes. Bring your sunglasses.

Com'on Jay, try to make the time!

(but you've heard all that)

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:fLKUc.9708$Fg5.53@attbi_s53...
While the instrument rating may get one through some events, it is
not
a
guarantee. In a single engine piston aircraft without weather
avoidance equipment, one runs the risk of flying into embedded
cells.

My main reason for not finishing up my instrument training has been
a
lack
of time. A close second, however, is the fact that I have been
tracking
my
"weather vs. flight" ratio for several years, and it is indeed a
rare
VFR
flight that is cancelled because of conditions that I would feel
comfortable
with flying IFR.

The flights I've scrubbed have usually been because of thunderstorms
(which
I wouldn't challenge IFR) or snow/ice -- for which my Pathfinder is
not
equipped. I also have no weather avoidance equipment on board, so
flying
in
August in the clag would be unwise. (Check out a radar loop for
Iowa
today,
and you'll see why.)

The bottom line is painful, but true: Until I own a much more
capable
aircraft than Atlas, an IFR ticket would be a nice ego booster, but
not
much
use.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jeremy Lew wrote:

Really, they have no business "approving" a frequency change if you're not
in their airspace. Do they have radar there?

Some yes, some no.

MMU and CDW "sort of" do, but they don't really use it. More accurately,
they don't assign squawks and differentiate traffic that way. CDW, at
least, cannot. Both MMU and CDW get feeds of RADAR from EWR.
Unfortunately, there's this ridge which creates a shadow that blocks at
least some of the pattern at CDW.

Further, the system at CDW doesn't show transponder codes. It'll
differentiate between VFR and IFR (one slash or two) and it'll show idents.
But nothing else. I've never visited the MMU tower, so I don't know
whether they've a better feed.

Other D airports have and use RADAR: TEB and RDG come to mind. In those
airspaces, you get a squawk.

- Andrew

You're right, I forgot. Freedom to fly direct ends at Richmond for me. But
it all makes sense given the density and restricted space I guess.

I'm going up to Saratoga this weekend - hope the weather agrees.

Can anyone suggest a good fuel stop in NJ? Price with a restaurant perhaps
(Solberg(?) and Blairstown come to mind.

"Guy Elden Jr." wrote in message
...
Heh, maybe as far south as Raleigh you can fly direct, but I have yet to
ever receive a clearance in the northeast that didn't involve a fairly
complicated, circuitous route. Normally I can negotiate once I get outside
the NY Class B and get some better routings, but it's nigh impossible to
file and fly direct around here.

I was very surprised on the way back from Raleigh a few weeks ago,
however,
when I was negotiating with clearance at RDU on the ground. Lots of bad
weather around Richmond and D.C. meant only a narrow line through the
storms, and the route I originally got took me right through the bad
stuff.
I called up a couple minutes later (while still parked at the ramp) and
asked if I could get a better route. They asked what I wanted, so I said
"direct Reading", and they approved it! (well, the computer did at least).
Of course as soon as I was handed off to Potomac approach things got a
little dicey, and no more direct Reading, but fortunately the controller
had
steered some planes through a gap in the weather, all reporting smooth
sailing, so I took his advice and got around the nasty stuff. Always good
to
have the better radar of approach guiding you through weather than center
(at least that's what I learned by watching the ASF DVD about thunderstorm
avoidance I got in the mail a few weeks ago).

--
Guy Elden Jr.


"Maule Driver" wrote in message
r.com...
And if you file/request direct - you'll fly direct. When I go from
Raleigh
to Florida, I tend to flyer a straighter line IFR than VFR - I'll tend
to
avoid the MOAs and stuff VFR.

It's easier to get radar weather help too.

"Guy Elden Jr." wrote in message
news
I agree about the increase in safety. I don't tempt fates unless
there's
a
clear line through thunderstorms, one that is visible above the cloud
tops,
and ice is just a simple no-go unless the clouds are nice and high (or
broken). I actually haven't even bothered trying to fly in winter if
there
are clouds near or above the freezing level.

I also realized something... time spent on pre-season football could
be
_much_ better spent on an IFR ticket for getting to the _real_ games
later
in the season! :-) Now that I've had my instrument ticket for over a
year,
I've found that I use it all the time, even in weather that is very
clear
and very visible. I like to fly long distances (done New Jersey to
Atlanta
twice now round-trip), and have found that if I'd just gone direct
versus
flying the airways I would've saved maybe 5 - 10 minutes tops on each
leg.
Not enough by far to leave behind the higher safety factor that IFR
offers.
You get separated from all IFR traffic, and usually get calls about
VFR
traffic. But even if you don't get a VFR call, the number of VFR
pilots
who
fly above about 2 - 3,000 feet AGL is much, much smaller than those
who
fly
closer to the ground. I can't even remember the last time I got a
traffic
call for VFR traffic while flying IFR anywhere above a cruising
altitude
of
4,000 ft.

Another thing to consider is that on those marginal days, you'll still
be
able to climb to a nice, comfortable cruising altitude and get better
fuel
economy... not to mention a much smoother ride, and depending on
direction,
a stiff tailwind to boot. The extra training alone will help improve
your
skills, which is always a good thing as we all continue to use our
"licenses
to learn".

--
Guy Elden Jr.


"Maule Driver" wrote in message
r.com...
Jay, the time thing is a bear.

But while you may not cancel many flights that you may "feel
comfortable
with flying IFR", you will make more of those flights that you do
make
"more
comfortably" IFR. More safely too.

Ironically, IFR you will spend more time in the sun rather than
among
the
attennaes. Bring your sunglasses.

Com'on Jay, try to make the time!

(but you've heard all that)

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:fLKUc.9708$Fg5.53@attbi_s53...
While the instrument rating may get one through some events, it
is
not
a
guarantee. In a single engine piston aircraft without weather
avoidance equipment, one runs the risk of flying into embedded
cells.

My main reason for not finishing up my instrument training has
been
a
lack
of time. A close second, however, is the fact that I have been
tracking
my
"weather vs. flight" ratio for several years, and it is indeed a
rare
VFR
flight that is cancelled because of conditions that I would feel
comfortable
with flying IFR.

The flights I've scrubbed have usually been because of
thunderstorms
(which
I wouldn't challenge IFR) or snow/ice -- for which my Pathfinder
is
not
equipped. I also have no weather avoidance equipment on board, so
flying
in
August in the clag would be unwise. (Check out a radar loop for
Iowa
today,
and you'll see why.)

The bottom line is painful, but true: Until I own a much more
capable
aircraft than Atlas, an IFR ticket would be a nice ego booster,
but
not
much
use.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"ISLIP" wrote in message
...

METARS showed some reporting stations in the 1900
overcast range, but most were at 2200 or better, and radar was clear
As we approached Dubuque's Class Delta airspace, the ceilings dropped
to their expected low-point of the trip (the Mississippi River valley
usually
creates its own little weather pattern.

I had to remain at 1900
feet to be legal.


How did you stay legal (500' below clouds) at 1900" if ceilings were
220' and sometimes lower?


Field elevation at DBQ is 1076' MSL. A ceiling of 1900' would put the cloud
bases at about 3000' MSL.

I'm betting an IFR ticket would be way more than an ego booster. I dont
think about it as an ego booster or go around bragging about it, but more
along the lines of like minimum equipment. Wouldnt your insurance
come down a little with that rating? That's pretty useful. The currency
required in itself every 6 months, whether with a safety pilot or a CFII,
is pretty useful. The IFR chart service and updates are more than a
strictly VFR pilot deals with, is useful. The fact ATC, while youre
IFR, just cant get rid of you if they feel busy, is useful. The service
beyond flight following when it comes to updated airspace activity,
weather, and traffic, is pretty useful. Yes, they'd do that for you
VFR too, if they can see you and if they have time. The continuity
of having your flight plan pass from facility to facility instead of
being terminated and telling your life story every other freq, is
useful.

Scud running just isnt worth it. Not with all the money tied up
into an owned aircraft, and not with your family on board. It wouldnt
instill confidence in me as a passenger if my pilot didnt do all he/she
could do in the way of training and preparation, whether it be a
rating, an onboard weather system, and a well maintained airplane.

That all being said, I mostly fly day VFR and only file IFR when
I need to. But at least it's there if/when I need it. And theres been
times where I wouldnt have gone VFR, a low thin layer that an
IFR clearance enabled me to pop through, or a detereorating condition
at an airport that an IFR approach was fine, but a VFR or SVFR
approach would be dicey. As far as embedded thunderstorms,
someday soon no one will have any excuse for not having some
form of onboard weather capability. More and more small aircraft
like yours and mine Jay are telling me "yeah, I see it on radar, too".
After some shoptalk on freq it's usually some nexrad download
system, or maybe just a stormscope. Certain types I expect to have
onboard radar, or are not surprised they have it. Other smaller
single engine types that normally dont have a radome on their wing,
that are way ahead of their airplane weatherwise, now that's nice
to see.

Lastly, IFR usually doesnt take you that far out of your way. Compare
with a flight planner the difference in miles/time/gallons. And many
times those airways take you away from high terrain (I'm talking out
west here), put you over/near airports enroute, and in case of GPS failure,
keep you in range of VORs.

It's just a no brainer for the type of flying it sounds like you do. You're
paying for it in avgas taxes whether you use the system or not, use it.

Later, Chris