Busted ADIZ - What Now?

"Troy Towner" wrote in message
m...
If it is within 3 months of the incident file an ASRS report.
This will be processed and added to a database of many other aviations
mistakes. When they are done getting the information from the report they
mail you back a slip which proves you made an ASRS report. Now that slip
is
a "get out of jail free card" if the FAA does come after you say that you
filed the ASRS report. NOTE: this can only be used as a get out of jail
free
card once every 3 years..( I think maybe longer). So file that report. You
can pick up a form from the local FBO or airport!


You have to file the report within 10 days of the incident.

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/immunity_nf.htm

Hi Scott

Being from Canada I can't answer your question.
As you are no doubt aware, you will get all kinds of answers when you
post in a group such as this.
Several people here have given you the same advice -
"stop talking about this in public and contact
AOPA's legal department"
These are all people who have earned the respect of this group.
I can only say trust their advice - and goode luck.

Let us know how you fare

Best regards

Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
First of all, I respect you for admitting that you done wrong, and not
simply portraying yourself as a victim. That kind of attitude tells me that
you are the kind of guy that I want to share the sky with, unlike the
multitudes of butt-nuggets out there who think that the rules don't apply to
them.

Ditto. I'd be your wingman anyday, Scott.

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:41:37 GMT, Scott Lowrey wrote:

I clipped the DC ADIZ back in May.

Doesn't seem worth the time to me.

!!!!!?

I'm pretty discouraged and haven't been interested in flying ever since
I left the FBO that day.

THIS is your real problem. Your lack of interest in flying, not a temporary
certificate suspension. Admittedly, you made the mistake, and should pay the
consequences, but where is your indignation that this stupid ADIZ may cost you
your ticket? Aren't you just itching to get back into the sky and fly? Where
did the motivation that you brought to your flight training go?

If you no longer want to fly - if it truely "doesn't seem worth the time" to
you, then walk away, accept whatever the FAA wants to dish out, and let your
medical lapse. Bend over and hold your ankles, and get on with your life.

If you still want to fly, then fight as though your life depended on it.
Investigate what help AOPA might be, join their legal plan for the future, find
a lawyer, formally appeal and send in another report. Get some remedial
training NOW, as evidence to the FAA that you want to improve. And, yes, you
CAN train without a certificate, you just can't solo. You've let this sit and
fester for too long. After the smoke clears start looking for a partnership on
a plane.

What would you do?

I'd fight for my certificate to my last breath and my last dollar. If I
couldn't fly, a part of me would die.

Demonick

Fallen pilots remembered

http://www.dailyinterlake.com/NewsEn...a=68-807233-64



"Larry Baier, 53, one of two Kalispell men who died when their mail plane
crashed Tuesday night in the Little Belt Mountains, loved flying and
teaching people to fly, according to his family. "He taught a lot of people
in this valley how to fly," said Angela Baier, who is married to Baier's son
Jesse, 29, also of Kalispell. "It was just something he loved to do."
Larry Baier also is survived by his wife, Catherine, of Kalispell; daughter
Sara, 26, of Melbourne, Fla.; and sons Kace, 13, and Dakota, 11, of
Kalispell. Larry Baier's co-pilot on Tuesday, Scott Kiral, was once his
student. The two had formed a strong friendship that had lasted for years,
Angela Baier said. Baier, a flight instructor for about 26 of the 30 years
he had been a pilot, liked to do "fun-filled" things, Angela Baier said. In
addition to flying, he and son Jesse owned Applied Explosives, a local
blasting contracting firm that operates statewide. Larry Baier was teaching
his son to fly. "Dad and Jesse were working on getting" Jesse Baier a
pilot's license, Angela Baier said. Kiral, in his 30s, worked for
Installation Technologies in Kalispell. Owner Butch Keith described Kiral as
"one of a kind." A husband and stepfather, Kiral was "very intelligent" and
capable of flying a plane, driving a water truck, fighting fires, building a
computer and working on computer networks, Keith said. He said Kiral also
worked for Coldwell Banker from 2002-04. The two men had been flying from
Billings to Kalispell in a twin-engine Beech 99 airplane loaded with mail
when the aircraft went down near the top of Big Baldy Mountain, about 40
miles southeast of Great Falls. Baier had been flying the mail route for
five years for Alpine Air Express, a Utah-based U.S. Postal Service
contractor. The accident is still being investigated, but initial reports
said neither man had reported any trouble, and the plane's emergency locator
beacon did not transmit a signal. The first-class and priority mail on the
plane was bound for ZIP codes that begin with 599, which covers Flathead and
Lincoln counties. If any of the mail is salvageable, it will be released
after the National Transportation Safety Board finishes its investigation,
according to Ted Blazina, manager of marketing for the Montana district of
the U.S. Postal Service."


Larry, I did not get a chance to meet your friend Scott but I knew you very
well as my primary flight instructor, mentor and friend since 1990. Your
soft spoken words of flight direction always seem to surface when problems
arise.
In my mind, You will always be in the right seat.

Tail winds forever,
Pat Thronson
Babb, MT

"Scott Lowrey" wrote in message
news:5L4Vc.38839$mD.35434@attbi_s02

I'm looking for advice on how to respond to an FAA order suspending my
ticket.

What would you do?

Don't beat yourself up too much about this. Others have said it, but talk
to AOPA.

With that said, the FAA is under "orders" from various alphabet soups to
tender mandatory suspensions for ADIZ violations. The FAA is *not* the bad
guy here, but rather just the unwilling front man.

First time ADIZ violators are facing suspensions - not revocations - of
certificates. This is not the end of your flying career and I believe
(without looking it up at the moment) that suspensions are cleared from your
record after a couple of years.

Contrary to what you may think, you *can* do flying related activities
without your certificate. You can perform simulator work, for example, that
can count toward an instrument rating.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
____________________

"Bob Jones" wrote in message
...
"Scott Lowrey" wrote in message
news:5L4Vc.38839$mD.35434@attbi_s02

I'm looking for advice on how to respond to an FAA order suspending my
ticket.

What would you do?

Don't beat yourself up too much about this. Others have said it, but talk
to AOPA.

With that said, the FAA is under "orders" from various alphabet soups to
tender mandatory suspensions for ADIZ violations. The FAA is *not* the
bad
guy here, but rather just the unwilling front man.

First time ADIZ violators are facing suspensions - not revocations - of
certificates.

Not always. Some I know have had short phone calls and nothing more was
done.

Scott Lowrey wrote in message news:5L4Vc.38839$mD.35434@attbi_s02...

I'm pretty discouraged and haven't been interested in flying ever since
I left the FBO that day. I did my homework before the flight, always
prided myself on knowing the rules of the system... but when it came
right down to it, I just didn't fly right. Now I'm wondering, as a
renter, when I'll ever be confident of my skills. Unless I continue
pursuing my IR (aborted last year when I moved) and really spend a lot
of time up there (and a lot of cash), what good is it? I'll just be a
sucky 20-hour-per-year pilot.

Scott,

There's an old joke about a safety seminar where the presenter begins
by saying, "By simply walking through the door, statistics show you
are 30% less likely to die in a crash. That will conclude our seminar,
have a nice day." Attitude isn't everything but it's a lot of it.

A brief read of these groups will show that everyone makes mistakes,
and many of them are made by people with a lot more experience than
you. My 12,000 hour CFII said the closest he ever came to landing
gear-up was right after he passed 10,000 hours.

I got my PPL 2 years ago and felt a lot of very similar things to what
you've described. Definitely got disoriented (as in lost) slightly a
few times, and with the airspace around Boston being quite busy it's
as much luck as anything that I didn't clip someone's airspace. And
those were just the navigation mistakes. I'd make landings so ugly
that I'd be walking around the plane afterwards looking for wrinkles.
Absolutely everything bothered me, I have some "obsessive worrier"
characteristics in my personality (thanks, Mom!)

From what you've written I think your mistake is the kind many of us
have made, especially at that point in the learning curve, and
unfortunately you just made it in the worst place you could. If you
take heart in anything, consider that the consequences of your error
are due mostly to bureaucratic insanity rather than the true awfulness
of your offense. In 99.9% of the country being off by a mile or five
on one occasion will result in--hold your breath--absolutely nothing
happening to you. So take off your hair shirt.

In my case, I found a good CFI and had him push me hard in two
specific areas. First, we'd go out on very windy days (18g40 one time)
and work the crosswinds, which always bothered me. Now I feel much
better knowing that I can put the plane down safely in those
conditions. Second, because I fly mostly from paved 5000+ runways, I
go out and do short/soft-field pattern work every 6 months or so.
Again, knowing that I can put the 172 down in ~500' if necessary makes
me feel a lot better.

Regarding situational awareness, the lack of which is the key
contributor to your predicament, I can only say that I feel 100%
better with 200 hours than I did at 100 hours. If you fly more, you
will feel better about your flying.

Opinions here will differ widely, but in the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic
regions, I think an IR is a very worthwhile thing to get for many
reasons. It will buy you back a lot of those days where there's just
too much "M" in the "VFR" and even some IFR days where icing and
storms are not a factor. It's not true in many parts of the country
but out here average IFR pilots with basically-equipped airplanes do
safely fly lots of IFR every year so the utility is quite clear.

I will also suggest contra many that training for an IR will improve
your airmanship generally, because of the discipline it imposes, and
the way it challenges you to integrate the skills of aircraft
performance, radio navigation, and communications. That's why every
insurance company in the land gives substantial discounts to pilots
with one, and why it is near-impossible to get insurance in many
planes without it, even though they may be flown VFR much of the time.

Also, when I fly anywhere outside my neighborhood, I use flight
following. It guarantees nothing, but provides an additional low-cost
mechanism that may prevent some problems. In my experience in New
England, the quality and utility of these services has generally been
good.

Last, while I chose the intensive path of aircraft ownership (1/5th of
a 172 so it's not that expensive) and regular flying throughout the
year, it is possible to be a 20hr/yr pilot and not suck. It's kind of
the way my father skis. He started at the age of 55, and what he'll do
is go on vacation somewhere like Park City once a year for a week.
He'll take a 1/2 or full-day lesson on the first day and then ski all
day long the rest of the week. He'll never be all that good, but he is
both safe and competent and enjoys it greatly. As a pilot, recency of
experience counts for a lot, and if you mostly fly locally on nice
days during the summer, you can do OK on 20 hours per year.

Personally, I would not find this satisfying, which explains why I
found the time and money to continue my flying the way I have.

Best,
-cwk.

"Scott Lowrey" wrote in message
news:5L4Vc.38839$mD.35434@attbi_s02

I'm looking for advice on how to respond to an FAA order suspending my
ticket.

What would you do?

Well, you did it, you know you did it, take the punishment and get on
with life.

Thanks, everyone, for responding -- including those who told me to shut
up and those who said, "Suck it up." For the most part, you've all
encouraged me to stop whining and get on with flying.

So, first let me respond to some of the advice I was given.

First, it *is* good advice to discuss these things only with an attorney
*if* you haven't already confessed in your report to the FAA. I
"confessed" in my initial report to the FAA because they asked me what
happened. I had no problem accepting responsibility and I still don't.
But, if there's a "next time", I might be a little wiser in my ways.

Second: file a NASA ASRS report at http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/
immediately. These reports, if filed within 10 days of the incident,
will get you an FAA waiver. No penalty -- the first time around. I
don't know if this applies to all types of incidents (doubt it) but it
*will* get you off the hook for an unauthorized ADIZ excursion.

Third: join the AOPA Legal Services plan now. It's worth $26 per year.
I joined after the incident, so I was only entitled to a free half
hour consultation with an AOPA-recommended attorney. If I end up
requiring the services of that attorney, I'll be paying $175 per hour
out-of-pocket. For me, however, the half hour consultation provided me
with enough education and advice to justify the 26 bucks. I doubt that
I'll have any problems going this one alone.

Now, I'll tell you what happened after I started getting responses to my
Usenet posting.

I called AOPA. I was quickly passed to the right people and provided
with the name of an attorney in my area. I left a message on his voice
mail. My main concern was one of time. The certified letter proposing
a 30-day suspension of my ticket was three weeks late in arriving. It
said I had to respond by August 21 or "default", meaning I'd accepted
the proposal and would be mailing in my shiny new certificate.

I decided to call the FAA to ask them about the date. I had no idea
where to start, so I simply called the Washington FSDO. These people
were *extremely* pleasant and helpful. The first person who answered
the phone got right to the point: where did you get this letter? Who
signed it?

When I mentioned the Regional Counsel's signature, she said, "OK, that's
over our heads - we're a district office within the Eastern Region.
Who was the safety inspector you sent your initial report to?" She was
not familiar with the name I gave.

"Tell you what. We've got an inspector here who has a lot of
experience. If anybody can tell you what to expect, he can." She
routed my call after I thanked her.

The man I spoke to next was candid and down to earth. "Don't worry
about the required response date. I can tell you right now, the FAA is
so backed up with these things that they're not going to care if you're
a day or two late." Sounds good, I said, but unless you give me that in
writing, I'm not going to relax. Should I call the Region?

"Not a good idea. You're probably not going to get anywhere with them.
But I tell you what. You've got five options to respond with, right?
Tell them you want an informal hearing. I've been to dozens of these
things. You can explain the situation again. They probably won't drop
the penalty but they'll cut it in half."

Sounded good to me. I thanked the inspector and waited for the lawyer
to call back.

The lawyer was a bit scary (do they learn those tactics in school?).
First, he wanted to know about the letters and my talk with the FSDO
people. "Don't worry about the date in the letter- you've got three
weeks from *the date you were served* - that's the law. The post office
recorded the date you picked up the letter." Phew. That was a relief.

He was alarmed that I had called the FAA. "Remember, you talk to me,
it's private and confidential. You talk to them, they can use anything
you say against you." I know. Christ, I'm not on trial for murder
here. He backed off a bit and told me that the FAA is definitely *not*
the enemy here. Those people are not at all pleased about supporting
multiple defense zones inside the country's borders.

Anyway, I told him about my conversation with the safety inspector and
he said, "Well, they gave you the exact same advice I would have.
Informal hearing is the way to go. Do it over the telephone. What did
you file in your initial report?"

I told him about my report. "Well, you've already confessed. But an
informal hearing will help you. What you really want is to get the
charge of 'reckless and dangerous operation' removed from the record."
I hadn't thought about that. In fact, I'd hardly noticed it in the
paperwork but there it was. I had endangered myself and the lives of
others by subjecting myself to possible military action.

So, I'm looking forward to my meeting with the FAA. Although I made a
mistake, I certainly don't think I was being careless or reckless. I
was disoriented, but I was flying the airplane. I don't believe for a
second that an interception would have resulted in a shoot-down,
therefore I can't accept the charge of endangerment. We'll see what
happens -- and whether or not I'll be calling that lawyer back!

I suppose by writing all of this, some of you will again admonish me for
providing details before the case is settled. That's fine and I
appreciate the warning. If this note comes back to bite me... well then
I'm a fool again. But it's a small enough event that it doesn't hurt to
let you know what the deal is.

What I really want to do know is get back in the saddle and get back up
there. Thanks for your support.

--Scott