PA-23 Aztec

I would like to get my multi rating and then buy a light twin. I have done
some research (very little actualy) but it seems from what I have read and
been told that the piper aztec is a fairly easy twin to learn to fly, not
too much of a maintenance hog and is a good solid aircraft. Not to mention
that some of the older ones are not that expensive to buy.

I would use it for personal use only, kinda like a family air wagon so I
don't want to be spending oodles of money just to use it. Does anyone have
any suggestions as to the cost of using a aircraft such as this? Or would I
be better off looking at a good 6 place single?

I kinda have this thing about twin engine planes although I also realize 2
engines = double the cost.

Thanks for your input!

Been there, done that. Bought a 1966 C model last month. email me with any
questions and I can tell you everything we've learned (so far)
Jim



"onsitewelding" wrote in message
news:07l1d.403688$M95.383968@pd7tw1no...
I would like to get my multi rating and then buy a light twin. I have done
some research (very little actualy) but it seems from what I have read and
been told that the piper aztec is a fairly easy twin to learn to fly, not
too much of a maintenance hog and is a good solid aircraft. Not to mention
that some of the older ones are not that expensive to buy.

I would use it for personal use only, kinda like a family air wagon so I
don't want to be spending oodles of money just to use it. Does anyone have
any suggestions as to the cost of using a aircraft such as this? Or would
I
be better off looking at a good 6 place single?

I kinda have this thing about twin engine planes although I also realize 2
engines = double the cost.

Thanks for your input!




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"onsitewelding" wrote in message
I would use it for personal use only, kinda like a family air wagon so I
don't want to be spending oodles of money just to use it. Does anyone have
any suggestions as to the cost of using a aircraft such as this? Or would
I
be better off looking at a good 6 place single?

I've owned Aztecs. They are wonderful for personal and commercial use. I ran
mine at 24 gallons/hour for 150 KIAS. Maintenance costs weren't excessive.

When doing a pre-buy, have your inspector give attention to the steel tubing
in the airframe. I've seen a few that were badly rusted below the
floorboards. Repairing the tubing is expensive. Fortunately it isn't common.
The aluminum part of the airframe was zinc-chromated by the factory.

D.

onsitewelding wrote:


I kinda have this thing about twin engine planes although I also realize 2
engines = double the cost.

Thanks for your input!



Plan on up to THREE times the cost.. due to extra systems and complexity
once all the maintenance is factored in.

Dave

"onsitewelding" writes:

I would like to get my multi rating and then buy a light twin. I have done
some research (very little actualy) but it seems from what I have read and
been told that the piper aztec is a fairly easy twin to learn to fly, not
too much of a maintenance hog and is a good solid aircraft. Not to mention
that some of the older ones are not that expensive to buy.

Mine would have been a poor (economic) choice even if I'd gotten it for
free.

I would use it for personal use only, kinda like a family air wagon so I

I've tried to come up with a better plane for our family. I haven't found
one. It's a great family truckster.

don't want to be spending oodles of money just to use it. Does anyone have
any suggestions as to the cost of using a aircraft such as this? Or would I
be better off looking at a good 6 place single?

If money is more of a concern than having the options a twin provides,
I certainly suggest going with a single.

I kinda have this thing about twin engine planes although I also realize 2
engines = double the cost.

I definitely have a "thing about twin engine planes". For the flying I
end up doing I would not be comfortable in a single. The Aztec has pulled
me through some hairy situations and I appreciate it for that. But, oh
boy, do I pay for it...

--kyler

"Jim Burns" writes:

Been there, done that. Bought a 1966 C model last month. email me with any
questions and I can tell you everything we've learned (so far)

Hey! Don't hide that info!

I'll be happy to share about my 1966 C model too. There's been lots of
info posted here (and in rec.aviation.owning) already but fire away with
new questions.

--kyler

Kyler,

If money is more of a concern than having the options a twin provides,

What are these, actually?

[...] The Aztec has pulled me through some hairy situations and
I appreciate it for that. But, oh boy, do I pay for it...

Can you tell us about this? I (as any prospective airplane buyer at some
time, I presume) am thinking about buying a twin, too. But reading through
some books and magazines I wonder if a twin is really worth the xtra cost&
hassle...

Best regards

Kai

I haven't seen this touched on...

I couple of months ago I read a story (in Flying, I think), indicating that
most aviation insurance companies would not insure pilot-owned light twins,
especially if the pilot doesn't have very many multi hours.

I can't remember if the ban covered only new policies, or all policies, but
it's something you might want to look into before you go too far.

Good luck!




"onsitewelding" wrote in message
news:07l1d.403688$M95.383968@pd7tw1no...
I would like to get my multi rating and then buy a light twin. I have done
some research (very little actualy) but it seems from what I have read and
been told that the piper aztec is a fairly easy twin to learn to fly, not
too much of a maintenance hog and is a good solid aircraft. Not to mention
that some of the older ones are not that expensive to buy.

I would use it for personal use only, kinda like a family air wagon so I
don't want to be spending oodles of money just to use it. Does anyone have
any suggestions as to the cost of using a aircraft such as this? Or would
I
be better off looking at a good 6 place single?

I kinda have this thing about twin engine planes although I also realize 2
engines = double the cost.

Thanks for your input!

In a previous article, "onsitewelding" said:
been told that the piper aztec is a fairly easy twin to learn to fly, not
too much of a maintenance hog and is a good solid aircraft. Not to mention
that some of the older ones are not that expensive to buy.

Our local FBO has had an Aztec for sale for over a year. They used to use
it for freight dogging and flight training. I think they're getting rid
of this one because the bottom fell out of the frieght dog market since
the banks don't have to return checks to the clearing centers overnight
any more.
http://www.flyrochester.com/sales1.html

I'm not sure if the reason it's taking so long to sell is a lack of buyers
or a lack of the ability of prospective buyers to get insurance.

The owner of the FBO died in a plane crash (in a Navaho) a few weeks ago,
and his widow hated everything to do with the business, so you might want
to call them soon before the widow dumps the whole inventory on some
asshole broker who won't be honest about the plane's background.

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"Pilots are reminded to ensure that all surly bonds are slipped before
attempting taxi or take-off"

"Kyler Laird" wrote in message
...
Hey! Don't hide that info!

Ok, my partners and I were looking or a 6 place that would haul
significantly more than the 182RG we'd been leasing. 2 of us had recently
gotten our multi rating and had a friend that is a CFII/AI owned an Aztec.
Through him we'd learn how to research the different models and years and
what to really look for. We flew with him several times and he really
showed us how amazing this airplane is. Remember, it's got the same airfoil
as a SuperCub, now strap on two 250hp engines and you can make it do some
remarkable things.

Although it's a twin and has more complex systems than complex/hi
performance singles, the systems are "relatively" simple for a twin. We
narrowed our search down to a 66 C model or newer. The C model came
standard with fuel injected engines and the 66 was the first year with the
larger rear baggage door/compartment. The 66 also has center stack radios
but didn't come with a standard T instrument configuration. So far this
hasn't been a problem.

Things to look for:
Fuel bladder condition and age
If the plane has sat for awhile, make sure the bladders have been full,
or pickled. Check them for leaks when they are completely full.

AD's and SB's
The latest expensive AD is the flap torque tube AD, requiring an
inspection every 500 hours or replacement. Our plane had the tube replaced,
now the AD is not applicable.

Depending on the props and hubs, they can be effected by some nasty
Harzell prop AD's. Ours was not effected.

Depending on when the engines were rebuilt, they may or may not be
effected by the Lycoming crankshaft retaining bolt AD. Ours were not.

There is an AD on the heater to have it pressure tested every 100 hours
of operation, so a separate hobbs meter on the heater will pay for itself.

Owner assisted maintenance is a must if you want to keep the bills down.
The Aztec is easy to work on and if you keep up with it, nothing will get to
big. We've replaced a few drain and overflow hoses, the cabin door lock,
and are currently installing new fuel cover gaskets and oil cooler braces.

The flaps and gear are hydraulic and operated through a mutual "power
pac". The pack is full of poppet valves and O-rings that need to be fresh.
If your power pac hasn't been overhauled recently, insist on it or a
replacement before purchasing. Figure $2000.

The hydraulic pump is an engine driven pump on the left engine, so if
you loose your left (critical) engine, you'll be pumping the flaps and gear
up and down by hand. A nice add-on would be an electric hydraulic pump.

Avoid the old Altimatic II autopilots, they are no longer serviceable.
We looked at one plane that had one and had to right off the plane simply
because it had a non working Altimatic II. Autopilots Central informed us
that it wasn't worth even looking at and we couldn't afford to put a new
S-Tec into that particular plane for what the owner was asking. The 66 that
we bought actually has an S-Tec 60-2 in it. It would have cost us over
$11,000 to replace the Altimatic II in the other plane.

Look for planes that were corporate owned or part 135 operated. They
typically have better maintenance, but beware, there are still things to
watch out for. Remember you can always fix things by throwing money at
them, but money will never make your airplane any newer. Shop smart. There
were over 10,000 Aztecs made over the years. The E model is most numerous,
followed by the C, then the F. We couldn't afford anything newer than a C.
The A's and B's are airplanes of a different era. When you get into a C,
the systems and especially the electrical system are greatly improved and
modernized including alternators rather than generators. There are very few
D's and the differences from a C are mostly cosmetic. The E get's you a
longer pointed nose but not much more front baggage. Due to the pointed
nose the E and F also was forced to come with an elevator down spring
(bungee) that gives more pitch stability. We installed one in our C and it
makes holding altitude and trimming much easier. No more porpoiseing. This
Piper kit cost us $600 installed.

All Aztecs are basically overgrown Apaches. Tube fuselage, which needs
to be inspected thoroughly during a pre-purchase. There are all kinds of
mods and STC's available. You can take a C model and turn it into a
look-alike F model if you want. You can get speed kits, casket doors,
extended noses, wing tips and tip tanks, you name it.

As far as expenses, we've been flying ours at around 165mph at reduced
power settings and have found the fuel burn to be around 22 gallons per
hour, total. Push everything to the wall, lean it out, and 25-28 gallons is
typical at about 200mph.

Most of our partners and our family members are small people so filling
the seats, the tanks and the baggage isn't a problem, so we typically load
and go.

We're looking at replacing the bench seat in the rear with two captains
chairs, then extending the rear baggage compartment into the tail section.
This will make a cavernous rear baggage area with the rear seats removed.

Take off and landing performance is awesome with a little practice.
Accelerate stop distances are around 2200 feet and if you don't have any
obstacles, you can get in and out of 1/2 that length if you need to. Climb
rates around 1400 fpm will get you up through the haze or overcast in no
time with plenty of extra power.

We found a plane that was owned by a man who was meticulous about
replacing worn items with new parts. So what we found was that during the
previous 3 annuals, over $25,000 had been spent. It was spent on items that
we won't have to replace in the near future, infact, he even pulled the gyro
instruments before our purchase and had them rebuilt, "just to be sure"
nothing was wrong.

There are a lot of Aztecs for sale. You'll find a good one, just be
patient and wait for one that you won't have to dump your life savings into.
We compared 3 Aztecs all in the $85,000 to $90,000 range and the one we
bought stood out like a rose. Look for one that has all the electronics and
radios that you want. Because there are so many, there are a lot of Aztecs
that have been upgraded.

Jim




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