90 Degree turn while slipping

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
Chris OCallaghan wrote:

Has anyone had the spoilers freeze shut without having rain first, and
without flying in cloud?

No, but I have seen a case where one spoiler became disconnected
resulting in sudden asymmetric lift when they (it) were deployed in the
pattern. This is potentially a much more serious problem than than having
both spoilers fail to open. A good reason to test your spoilers early in
the approach and (naturally) in the preflight.

Vaughn

Most Flight Manuals recommend regular and repeated movement of the
controls in conditions where icing is possible. Opening and closing
the spoilers at intervals throughout the flight might not be a bad
idea in situations where freezing is a real possibililty. Again,
vaseline between the mating surfaces is a good preventative measure.
You'll want to clean and reapply for each flight to prevent it picking
up dirt.

"Vaughn" wrote in message ...
"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
Chris OCallaghan wrote:

Has anyone had the spoilers freeze shut without having rain first, and
without flying in cloud?

No, but I have seen a case where one spoiler became disconnected
resulting in sudden asymmetric lift when they (it) were deployed in the
pattern. This is potentially a much more serious problem than than having
both spoilers fail to open. A good reason to test your spoilers early in
the approach and (naturally) in the preflight.

Vaughn

Vaughn" wrote in message ...
"JohnD" wrote in message
om...
ISoar wrote in message
. ..
...
What about this situation: You are on your fifth solo flight and OOOH
NOOO! your yaw string disintigrates while under tow. No, this never
happens does it? (Happened to me once: Club 1-26 with brand new canopy
& no yaw string. Damn it wasn't on my pre-flight checklist! How could
I have missed it?) But if it does what better way to fly the pattern
but to execute moderate slipping turns in the pattern while maintaing
proper airspeed? Wouldn't that be safer than having a 30 flight
student attempt to fly perfectly coordinated without a yaw string? Err
on the safe side?
...
P.S. Always remember: Proper pitch attitude control is imperative when
executing this maneuver as the IAS will almost certainly not be
correct.

I should tell my early-solo students that a missing or stuck yaw string
is sufficient reason for them to make a non-standard pattern, make
deliberately uncoordinated and little-practiced turns near the ground, and
give up the advantage of a correctly functioning IAS? I don't think so!

In that situation, I might want my student to hold an extra 5 knots in
the pattern, and even if their asscheeks are not yet sufficiently calibrated
to produce a perfect turn, they should be able to mechanically coordinate
the controls enough to make a spin unlikely while simultaneously remaining
far enough above stall speed to make a spin impossible.

That said, a slip/skid indicator costs a whole $45.00 at Wings& Wheels
and there is no reason for any trainer to be without one.

Vaughn

I'm sorry, but I believe you missed my point. What I am saying is that
I have been taught that early-solo students should know how to
properly execute and know when to utilize a slip and slipping turns
BEFORE they solo. First, I did not say anything about flying a
non-standard pattern. They wouldn't be flying a 'non-standard' pattern
if they had been taught the skill in the first place and they wouldn't
be 'little practiced' if you had them practice and develop the skill.
Yes, 'deliberately uncoordinated' slipping turns are a required skill
by CFI's here and by the FAA designee. "During the landing portion of
this flight I want you to demonstrate at least one slipping turn and a
slip while controlling your heading."

"JohnD" wrote in message
om...
What about this situation: You are on your fifth solo flight and OOOH
NOOO! your yaw string disintigrates while under tow. No, this never
happens does it? (Happened to me once: Club 1-26 with brand new canopy
& no yaw string. Damn it wasn't on my pre-flight checklist! How could
I have missed it?) But if it does what better way to fly the pattern
but to execute moderate slipping turns in the pattern while maintaing
proper airspeed? Wouldn't that be safer than having a 30 flight
student attempt to fly perfectly coordinated without a yaw string? Err
on the safe side?
...
P.S. Always remember: Proper pitch attitude control is imperative when
executing this maneuver as the IAS will almost certainly not be
correct.

I should tell my early-solo students that a missing or stuck yaw
string
is sufficient reason for them to make a non-standard pattern, make
deliberately uncoordinated and little-practiced turns near the ground,
and
give up the advantage of a correctly functioning IAS? I don't think so!

In that situation, I might want my student to hold an extra 5 knots
in
the pattern, and even if their asscheeks are not yet sufficiently
calibrated
to produce a perfect turn, they should be able to mechanically
coordinate
the controls enough to make a spin unlikely while simultaneously
remaining
far enough above stall speed to make a spin impossible.

That said, a slip/skid indicator costs a whole $45.00 at Wings&
Wheels
and there is no reason for any trainer to be without one.

Vaughn

I'm sorry, but I believe you missed my point.

Perhaps you missed mine. I don't think that a missing or stuck yaw
string is sufficient reason for an early solo student (or anyone else that I
can imagine right now) to fly a slipping approach. If I am wrong please
educate me.

What I am saying is that
I have been taught that early-solo students should know how to
properly execute and know when to utilize a slip and slipping turns
BEFORE they solo.

Actually, 61.87(i) tells us what flight training a student pilot must
receive prior to solo and the only guidance we have there regarding slips is
the variously-interpreted phrase "slips to a landing", there is no specific
requirement for slipping turns. I realize that 61.87 represents an
absolute minimum and we should add things to the mix that we find important.

Vaughn

"Vaughn" wrote in message ...
"JohnD" wrote in message
om...
What about this situation: You are on your fifth solo flight and OOOH
NOOO! your yaw string disintigrates while under tow. No, this never
happens does it? (Happened to me once: Club 1-26 with brand new canopy
& no yaw string. Damn it wasn't on my pre-flight checklist! How could
I have missed it?) But if it does what better way to fly the pattern
but to execute moderate slipping turns in the pattern while maintaing
proper airspeed? Wouldn't that be safer than having a 30 flight
student attempt to fly perfectly coordinated without a yaw string? Err
on the safe side?
...
P.S. Always remember: Proper pitch attitude control is imperative when
executing this maneuver as the IAS will almost certainly not be
correct.

I should tell my early-solo students that a missing or stuck yaw
string
is sufficient reason for them to make a non-standard pattern, make
deliberately uncoordinated and little-practiced turns near the ground,
and
give up the advantage of a correctly functioning IAS? I don't think so!

In that situation, I might want my student to hold an extra 5 knots
in
the pattern, and even if their asscheeks are not yet sufficiently
calibrated
to produce a perfect turn, they should be able to mechanically
coordinate
the controls enough to make a spin unlikely while simultaneously
remaining
far enough above stall speed to make a spin impossible.

That said, a slip/skid indicator costs a whole $45.00 at Wings&
Wheels
and there is no reason for any trainer to be without one.

Vaughn

I'm sorry, but I believe you missed my point.

Perhaps you missed mine. I don't think that a missing or stuck yaw
string is sufficient reason for an early solo student (or anyone else that I
can imagine right now) to fly a slipping approach. If I am wrong please
educate me.

What I am saying is that
I have been taught that early-solo students should know how to
properly execute and know when to utilize a slip and slipping turns
BEFORE they solo.

Actually, 61.87(i) tells us what flight training a student pilot must
receive prior to solo and the only guidance we have there regarding slips is
the variously-interpreted phrase "slips to a landing", there is no specific
requirement for slipping turns. I realize that 61.87 represents an
absolute minimum and we should add things to the mix that we find important.

Vaughn

O.K. I'm really not trying to argue here so perhaps we could get away
from the yawstring example and you could help me understand why you
believe 'an early solo student (or anyone else....' should not know
how to execute and be skilled at a 'slipping approach'.

It would appear to me that other CFI's and FAA examiners believe the
"slips to landing" phrase in 61.87(i) means they should teach and
expect to see competancy in this maneuver. So why is your approach so
different from theirs? Shouldn't we be standardized in this? If not in
our training then certainly in what an FAA examiner expects from a
pilot? What about the poor guy who trains and obtains his license in
your area, moves out here, then flunks his BFR because the standard
and expectations are so different? (I realize I may be exaggerating
this a bit but you see what I mean don't you?)

More importantly how does the downside of knowing how to execute a
'slipping approach' outweigh the benefits of being able to utilize
this skill when the situation warrants?

JohnD

"JohnD" wrote in message
om...

O.K. I'm really not trying to argue here.

Neither am I, this would best be done over a friendly beer.

so perhaps we could get away
from the yawstring example and you could help me understand why you
believe 'an early solo student (or anyone else....' should not know
how to execute and be skilled at a 'slipping approach'.

You are "putting words in my keyboard", I wrote no such thing as what
you have above. I was addressing your yawstring example speciifically, and
I wrote that (within my present knowledge and experience) a missing or
broken yawstring is not a reason to make a slipping pattern.


It would appear to me that other CFI's and FAA examiners believe the
"slips to landing" phrase in 61.87(i) means they should teach and
expect to see competancy in this maneuver. So why is your approach so
different from theirs?

Where did I say it is?

Vaughn

"Vaughn Simon" wrote in message ...
"JohnD" wrote in message
om...

O.K. I'm really not trying to argue here.

Neither am I, this would best be done over a friendly beer.

so perhaps we could get away
from the yawstring example and you could help me understand why you
believe 'an early solo student (or anyone else....' should not know
how to execute and be skilled at a 'slipping approach'.

You are "putting words in my keyboard", I wrote no such thing as what
you have above. I was addressing your yawstring example speciifically, and
I wrote that (within my present knowledge and experience) a missing or
broken yawstring is not a reason to make a slipping pattern.



It would appear to me that other CFI's and FAA examiners believe the
"slips to landing" phrase in 61.87(i) means they should teach and
expect to see competancy in this maneuver. So why is your approach so
different from theirs?

Where did I say it is?

'Round and round we go.'
As I read this I can see that you certainly didn't say that exactly,
in fact you have really said nothing except dispute my poor example.
Good job. Thanks for correcting me. Do you actually have an opinion on
the subject?

Have a nice day.

As a bit of light relief to this e-mail tennis, I thought
I'd add an 'interesting' idea that did the rounds in
the UK a few years ago. Basically, the BGA instructors'
committee (or the national coach, can't remember exactly
now) suggested that if you were high on finals, pulling
full brake/spoiler and diving at the ground would burn
off more energy than other options. We had great fun
trying this out one weekend until our CFI decided his
aircraft were in mortal danger and stopped the experiment.

Happy days!

Paul

At 18:30 12 February 2004, Johnd wrote:
'Vaughn Simon' wrote in message news:...
'JohnD' wrote in message
om...

O.K. I'm really not trying to argue here.

Neither am I, this would best be done over a
friendly beer.

so perhaps we could get away
from the yawstring example and you could help me
understand why you
believe 'an early solo student (or anyone else....'
should not know
how to execute and be skilled at a 'slipping approach'.

You are 'putting words in my keyboard', I wrote
no such thing as what
you have above. I was addressing your yawstring example
speciifically, and
I wrote that (within my present knowledge and experience)
a missing or
broken yawstring is not a reason to make a slipping
pattern.



It would appear to me that other CFI's and FAA examiners
believe the
'slips to landing' phrase in 61.87(i) means they
should teach and
expect to see competancy in this maneuver. So why
is your approach so
different from theirs?

Where did I say it is?

'Round and round we go.'
As I read this I can see that you certainly didn't
say that exactly,
in fact you have really said nothing except dispute
my poor example.
Good job. Thanks for correcting me. Do you actually
have an opinion on
the subject?

Have a nice day.

Paul Kaye wrote:

As a bit of light relief to this e-mail tennis, I thought
I'd add an 'interesting' idea that did the rounds in
the UK a few years ago. Basically, the BGA instructors'
committee (or the national coach, can't remember exactly
now) suggested that if you were high on finals, pulling
full brake/spoiler and diving at the ground would burn
off more energy than other options. We had great fun
trying this out one weekend until our CFI decided his
aircraft were in mortal danger and stopped the experiment.

I find the technique quite useful in gliders with good but not extremely
powerful airbrakes (don't need to use it in the Blanik!), but it does
work better if you turn base to final with plenty of height. I prefer
that, so I don't use airbrakes or slipping turns in the pattern (except
for the rare "expedited" arrival) until I've turned onto final. Making
turns 600-800 feet off the ground has always seemed safer than 300 feet.

I'm told it is an EXTEMELY effective method in gliders with trailing
edge divebrakes.
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

As a bit of light relief to this e-mail tennis, I thought
I'd add an 'interesting' idea that did the rounds in
the UK a few years ago. Basically, the BGA instructors'
committee (or the national coach, can't remember exactly
now) suggested that if you were high on finals, pulling
full brake/spoiler and diving at the ground would burn
off more energy than other options. We had great fun
trying this out one weekend until our CFI decided his
aircraft were in mortal danger and stopped the experiment.

Happy days!

Paul

Nice analogy Paul - do you play doubles?

As I recall it was the CFI who initiated it and I believe the correct
procedure was to reduce speed to min sink, then deploy full air brake, then
initiate a dive attempting to reach 60knots. The national coach at the time,
lovely man, card player, suggested its use as a means of landing straight
ahead from a failed which launch. I recall there was another game we played
involved a life expired 'chute - he initiated that one too, as I recall.

Rgds,

Derrick.