Postponed 3 students due to TSA

rated pilots who are not instructors take
"friends" for short "rides"...?? If the pilot were to elect to show a friend
how he touches the controls for a moment every now and then, I don't see
where an infraction comes into play...I don't think there's any rules about

It seems to me that if I am just taking someone for a ride, I am not exercising
the priveleges of my CFI, it is either my private or commercial that I am using
at that point.

However, if I happen to use a syllabus, give ground instruction, fly with the
person, and then log the flight as instruction received in their log book, then
I am doing the CFI bit. Of course, I've seen many CFI skip the syllabus and
ground instruction bit too, so maybe it just boils down to how the flight is
logged, if logged at all.

Jim Vincent
N483SZ
illspam

Burt Compton wrote:

Looks like every American at every age should obtain and carry a US Passport.
Makes life easier to carry your "papers". But then again, I'm not trained to
detect forged Passports.

Burt, then how do you know they don't have a passport.
Ask them if they have anything they THINK might be a passport.
Then, if you can't tell it isn't one, take a photo and keep it
for five years.

Fight fire with fire, ignorance with ignorance, and
stupidity with stupidity. I'm just waiting for my daughter to
grow up enough so I can give her dual (without a passport).
I'm looking forward to meeting the TSA employee who
prosecutes that case...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Burt,

As I understand it, 'rides' are excluded under the
'demo flights' exclusion.
If not then we are in a bigger mess.
To give a ride you need only a commercial license (ie
not a CFIG). Therefore if *they* consider rides to
be insructional then by inference - they must be done
by an instructor.
Lets hope it doesnt go that way.
So, keep some non-instructor ride pilots available.....

Jim


At 16:55 20 October 2004, Burt Compton wrote:
Snip
The spontaneous days of the touring
airplane pilot who sees a gliderport and wants a spur-of-the-momen
t
introductory dual glider flight are gone, unless they
are carrying a US
Passport.
snip
Burt
Marfa, Texas

In article 4176dc34$1@darkstar, (Mark James Boyd)
writes:

I'm just waiting for my daughter to
grow up enough so I can give her dual (without a passport).
I'm looking forward to meeting the TSA employee who
prosecutes that case...

Remember that old saying............"Be careful what you ask for".
CP

On 20 Oct 2004 19:55:32 GMT, Steve Hill
wrote:

I have a curious question...If this whole "carry your papers" mess is based
on flight instructors verifying a "students" papers...and a "student" is
anyone a flight instructor takes for an instructional flight...wouldn't it
be a simple solution to just have rated pilots who are not instructors take
"friends" for short "rides"...?? If the pilot were to elect to show a friend
how he touches the controls for a moment every now and then, I don't see
where an infraction comes into play...

You raise an interesting question.
What are you going to do with your passenger if he's sitting in the
same cockpit as you and asks to touch the controls?

What's the difference between a pilot-to-be and a
pilot-to-be-for-this-flight-but-only-for-this-flight, seen from the
point of view of homeland security?


Have you heard about the Frankfurt case of the hijacked Dimona (in the
US called Katana Extreme) motorglider?

An insane passenger hijacked the motorglider by forcing the pilot to
leave the aircraft once they had taxied to the runway. Then he took
off (I think he had some motorglider lessons, but he definitely didn't
have a license) and flew over the city of Frankfurt, right through the
approach sector of Frankfurt Rhein Main airport. This took over two
hours and Rhein Main airport, one of the busiest in the world, was
shut down completely during this time. They got him on the radio, and
he mentioned that he was thinking about crashing the Dimona into the
city of Frankfurt (they are pretty proud of their few tiny sky
crapers). As a result, the city was partially evacuated (!). In the
end they could persuade him to land on Rhein Main.

This happened in Germany - here people usually don't panic as easily
as in other parts of the world (well... at least until 9-11).


Somehow I see it coming that the same security checks for passengers
of a 4-seat Cessna as for commercial flights are going to become
mandatatory, including a closed cockpit for only the pilot. or simply
forbid any passenger flights with people that have not been briefed by
the FBI.





Bye
Andreas

I've been able to get birth certificate records by phone contact to the
county the are filed in, or in the case of some.. by web request. Granted
each time took a week or two to complete the mailing to my residence. I did
not have to fly 3000 miles to retrieve such records in person.

As for Scenario #2... I agree.. the help desk person has not a clue... but
it's not a matter of "solo" it's a matter of receiving training...

We are already directing all recent contacts that have inquired about
training to bring notarized copy for us to see, and a copy (of any type) to
keep, or just give us the notarized copy.

BT

"Burt Compton" wrote in message
...
Scenario # 1: I've got 2 guys (with FAA SEL Pilot Certificates) who
planned to
come to Marfa, Texas for glider training next week. Neither has a US
Passport
nor can they obtain a Certified Copy of their Birth Certificate because
they
are told you need to go to your home town or county to obtain it in person
from
the Clerk's office. Both of the guys tell me they are US Citizens, but
there's
no time to obtain TSA required documents in time to start training with me
next
week. Even though your FAA Pilot Certificate lists your Nationality, it
is
not a valid form of ID according to the TSA "help" desk. TSA tells me I
cannot
train them. I wonder if they are giving out consistent advice?

Scenario # 2: Third student is a local 13 year old youngster. Hopes to
solo
on 14th birthday over the Christmas Holidays. Has no previous glider
training
except great RC model flyer. Been reading books and watching soaring
videos.
No Passport. Mom working on getting an original certified copy of his
birth
certificate from out of state. TSA "help" desk has no idea what I'm
talking
about. Advised me that no one can fly solo under age 16. Looks like TSA
doesn't understand gliders - or at least the advisor I talked with was not
aware.

I guess we will have to advise our students well in advance of coming to
fly
with us to get their documents in order. The spontaneous days of the
touring
airplane pilot who sees a gliderport and wants a spur-of-the-moment
introductory dual glider flight are gone, unless they are carrying a US
Passport. The kid that learned to be your line crew last weekend will
not get
their first dual glider flight as a reward for their work. I wonder how
CAP is
dealing with this?

Looks like every American at every age should obtain and carry a US
Passport.
Makes life easier to carry your "papers". But then again, I'm not
trained to
detect forged Passports.

Burt
Marfa, Texas

Demo flights for marketing are not required to meet the TSA criteria..
however.. if a log book is produced for a CFI endorsement to meet the
requirements of an additional rating.. then TSA rules are in effect.

BT

"Steve Hill" wrote in message
...
I have a curious question...If this whole "carry your papers" mess is based
on flight instructors verifying a "students" papers...and a "student" is
anyone a flight instructor takes for an instructional flight...wouldn't it
be a simple solution to just have rated pilots who are not instructors
take
"friends" for short "rides"...?? If the pilot were to elect to show a
friend
how he touches the controls for a moment every now and then, I don't see
where an infraction comes into play...I don't think there's any rules
about
showing friends how we as rated pilots do things...If that "ride with a
friend" entices a person to choose to pursue an instructional flight, with
a
certified instructor, that of course becomes a much more intentional act,
and a little planning and paperwork won't bog things down much at that
point, as they are merely compliance issues...

Perhaps I'm wrong, but methinks there is always more than one way to skin
a
cat...



Steve
DG-400

I thought this was the US.....not the USSR.....oh that is
right.....communism is dead.........maybe!!!!


"Burt Compton" wrote in message
...
Scenario # 1: I've got 2 guys (with FAA SEL Pilot Certificates) who
planned to
come to Marfa, Texas for glider training next week. Neither has a US
Passport
nor can they obtain a Certified Copy of their Birth Certificate because
they
are told you need to go to your home town or county to obtain it in person
from
the Clerk's office. Both of the guys tell me they are US Citizens, but
there's
no time to obtain TSA required documents in time to start training with me
next
week. Even though your FAA Pilot Certificate lists your Nationality, it
is
not a valid form of ID according to the TSA "help" desk. TSA tells me I
cannot
train them. I wonder if they are giving out consistent advice?

Scenario # 2: Third student is a local 13 year old youngster. Hopes to
solo
on 14th birthday over the Christmas Holidays. Has no previous glider
training
except great RC model flyer. Been reading books and watching soaring
videos.
No Passport. Mom working on getting an original certified copy of his
birth
certificate from out of state. TSA "help" desk has no idea what I'm
talking
about. Advised me that no one can fly solo under age 16. Looks like TSA
doesn't understand gliders - or at least the advisor I talked with was not
aware.

I guess we will have to advise our students well in advance of coming to
fly
with us to get their documents in order. The spontaneous days of the
touring
airplane pilot who sees a gliderport and wants a spur-of-the-moment
introductory dual glider flight are gone, unless they are carrying a US
Passport. The kid that learned to be your line crew last weekend will
not get
their first dual glider flight as a reward for their work. I wonder how
CAP is
dealing with this?

Looks like every American at every age should obtain and carry a US
Passport.
Makes life easier to carry your "papers". But then again, I'm not
trained to
detect forged Passports.

Burt
Marfa, Texas

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:0ACdd.34287$bk1.21274@fed1read05...
Demo flights for marketing are not required to meet the TSA criteria

Be careful here. They mean for "marketing" an aircraft, not "marketing"
flight training.

"Demonstration flight for marketing purposes means a flight for the purpose of
demonstrating an aircraft’s or aircraft

simulator’s capabilities or characteristics to a potential purchaser, or to an
agent of a potential purchaser,

of the aircraft or simulator, including an acceptance flight after an aircraft
manufacturer delivers an aircraft to a

purchaser."



Vaughn

This isn't Communism; it's Fascism. Communism is about
economic organization; Fascism is about behavioral
control. I despise both.


At 01:06 21 October 2004, Bgmiff wrote:
I thought this was the US.....not the USSR.....oh that
is
right.....communism is dead.........maybe!!!!


'Burt Compton' wrote in message
...
Scenario # 1: I've got 2 guys (with FAA SEL Pilot
Certificates) who
planned to
come to Marfa, Texas for glider training next week.
Neither has a US
Passport
nor can they obtain a Certified Copy of their Birth
Certificate because
they
are told you need to go to your home town or county
to obtain it in person
from
the Clerk's office. Both of the guys tell me they
are US Citizens, but
there's
no time to obtain TSA required documents in time to
start training with me
next
week. Even though your FAA Pilot Certificate lists
your Nationality, it
is
not a valid form of ID according to the TSA 'help'
desk. TSA tells me I
cannot
train them. I wonder if they are giving out consistent
advice?

Scenario # 2: Third student is a local 13 year old
youngster. Hopes to
solo
on 14th birthday over the Christmas Holidays. Has
no previous glider
training
except great RC model flyer. Been reading books and
watching soaring
videos.
No Passport. Mom working on getting an original certified
copy of his
birth
certificate from out of state. TSA 'help' desk has
no idea what I'm
talking
about. Advised me that no one can fly solo under
age 16. Looks like TSA
doesn't understand gliders - or at least the advisor
I talked with was not
aware.

I guess we will have to advise our students well in
advance of coming to
fly
with us to get their documents in order. The spontaneous
days of the
touring
airplane pilot who sees a gliderport and wants a spur-of-the-mome
nt
introductory dual glider flight are gone, unless they
are carrying a US
Passport. The kid that learned to be your line crew
last weekend will
not get
their first dual glider flight as a reward for their
work. I wonder how
CAP is
dealing with this?

Looks like every American at every age should obtain
and carry a US
Passport.
Makes life easier to carry your 'papers'. But then
again, I'm not
trained to
detect forged Passports.

Burt
Marfa, Texas