US Dollar sinks to new low against Euro

What? I don't know of any 13 span glider that comes
close to an LS4.

Knocking a couple of meters off the wings doesn't reduce
your manufacturing costs much. If you're going to
build a glider it's worth the extra $$$ to make it
15M. Otherwise you end up with a PW5.

Ben.


Bob Kuykendall wrote:


At production run rates of several thousand gliders
per manufacturer
per year, I would guess that it would be economically
viable to apply
existing manufacturing technologies that could drastically
reduce the
per-unit price of a typical 15-meter glider. And by
drastically, I
mean between to between a quarter and a third of current
prices.


Many people say they would be delighted to have a
glider with the
performance of an LS4. This performance can now be
achieved with a
smaller span glider of 13 M or less. Can you guess
at the cost reduction
that would be possible with a 12 or 13 meter glider
compared to the 15M
LS4? Smaller factory, less materials, less labor (especially
if hand
finishing is needed), smaller trailer, lower shipping
costs (RO-RO is by
volume, I think).


Eric

Eric Greenwell wrote:
Bob Kuykendall wrote:


At production run rates of several thousand gliders per manufacturer
per year, I would guess that it would be economically viable to apply
existing manufacturing technologies that could drastically reduce the
per-unit price of a typical 15-meter glider. And by drastically, I
mean between to between a quarter and a third of current prices.


Many people say they would be delighted to have a glider with the
performance of an LS4. This performance can now be achieved with a
smaller span glider of 13 M or less. Can you guess at the cost reduction
that would be possible with a 12 or 13 meter glider compared to the 15M
LS4? Smaller factory, less materials, less labor (especially if hand
finishing is needed), smaller trailer, lower shipping costs (RO-RO is by
volume, I think).



A 40:1 13 meter glider? Tell me about the wingloading.

Fred

Fred Mueller wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:
Bob Kuykendall wrote:


At production run rates of several thousand gliders per manufacturer
per year, I would guess that it would be economically viable to apply
existing manufacturing technologies that could drastically reduce the
per-unit price of a typical 15-meter glider. And by drastically, I
mean between to between a quarter and a third of current prices.


Many people say they would be delighted to have a glider with the
performance of an LS4. This performance can now be achieved with a
smaller span glider of 13 M or less. Can you guess at the cost reduction
that would be possible with a 12 or 13 meter glider compared to the 15M
LS4? Smaller factory, less materials, less labor (especially if hand
finishing is needed), smaller trailer, lower shipping costs (RO-RO is by
volume, I think).



A 40:1 13 meter glider? Tell me about the wingloading.

And by the way, tell us how reducing a 15 meters wing by 2 meters
will divide the price of the full glider by 2. If there is a 10%
decrease it is the great maximum, and 10% decrease is absolutely
insignificant. Any new design, by itself will generate costs that will
offset any economy that it is purported to produce. I cannot understand
how people still come with such poor ideas, when the PW affair has
proven without any reasonable doubt their ineptness. The only solution
to decrease the price of gliders is to *choose* one and only one model,
proven good, proven desirable to buyers, and produce it at large scale.
The LS4 is obviously a very good candidate. Apparently someone has
decided to produce it and we already see very significant reduction in
price.


Fred


--

Michel TALON

Comes close:

http://www.alisport.com/eu/eng/silent2.htm


"Ben Flewett" wrote in message
...
What? I don't know of any 13 span glider that comes
close to an LS4.

Knocking a couple of meters off the wings doesn't reduce
your manufacturing costs much. If you're going to
build a glider it's worth the extra $$$ to make it
15M. Otherwise you end up with a PW5.

Ben.


Bob Kuykendall wrote:


At production run rates of several thousand gliders
per manufacturer
per year, I would guess that it would be economically
viable to apply
existing manufacturing technologies that could drastically
reduce the
per-unit price of a typical 15-meter glider. And by
drastically, I
mean between to between a quarter and a third of current
prices.


Many people say they would be delighted to have a
glider with the
performance of an LS4. This performance can now be
achieved with a
smaller span glider of 13 M or less. Can you guess
at the cost reduction
that would be possible with a 12 or 13 meter glider
compared to the 15M
LS4? Smaller factory, less materials, less labor (especially
if hand
finishing is needed), smaller trailer, lower shipping
costs (RO-RO is by
volume, I think).


Eric

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:14:10 GMT, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:




Recently, I've been playing with solid UHMWPE. I have no idea whether a
glider could be made of it but it's fascinating stuff - very light, strong,
slippery and with fantastic abraision resistance. I understand it can be
injection molded.

I have two pieces of this plastic in the shelf, one, 1 1/4" round that
is assumimg a C shape slowly, after about two years, the other is
3/16" sheet that is becoming a very interesting shape after roughly
four years. Tends to indicate that over a period of years it is not
dimensionally stable, but warps. Neither of these pieces is supported
over it's length, it's on racks with similarly shaped materials.

Kirk Stant wrote:
...
I must be the only guy who thinks Rutan's designs are ugly and
over-optimized.
...

Certainly not, concerning the optimization.
See http://inter.action.free.fr/publicat...ds/canards.htm
Sorry, it is in French.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:14:10 GMT, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:




Recently, I've been playing with solid UHMWPE. I have no idea whether a
glider could be made of it but it's fascinating stuff - very light,
strong,
slippery and with fantastic abraision resistance. I understand it can be
injection molded.

I have two pieces of this plastic in the shelf, one, 1 1/4" round that
is assumimg a C shape slowly, after about two years, the other is
3/16" sheet that is becoming a very interesting shape after roughly
four years. Tends to indicate that over a period of years it is not
dimensionally stable, but warps. Neither of these pieces is supported
over it's length, it's on racks with similarly shaped materials.


I suppose if you have a hip replacement joint made of UHMWPE you should be
concerned. Maybe the stuff the implants are made of is somehow different.

Bill Daniels

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:05:00 GMT, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:14:10 GMT, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:




Recently, I've been playing with solid UHMWPE. I have no idea whether a
glider could be made of it but it's fascinating stuff - very light,
strong,
slippery and with fantastic abraision resistance. I understand it can be
injection molded.

I have two pieces of this plastic in the shelf, one, 1 1/4" round that
is assumimg a C shape slowly, after about two years, the other is
3/16" sheet that is becoming a very interesting shape after roughly
four years. Tends to indicate that over a period of years it is not
dimensionally stable, but warps. Neither of these pieces is supported
over it's length, it's on racks with similarly shaped materials.


I suppose if you have a hip replacement joint made of UHMWPE you should be
concerned. Maybe the stuff the implants are made of is somehow different.

Bill Daniels

A hip replacement isn't sitting in one position for two years at a
time.

No it doesn't...

1. Wing loading is 34 kg.
2. No water
3. Polar curve is very steep at high speeds
4. It’s got a low VNE
5. It’s got flaps
6. And an engine!

It’s nothing like an LS4.

This actually looks like a good glider in it own right
but it's in a completely different category to LS4.



At 14:12 10 November 2004, Bob Salvo wrote:
Comes close:

http://www.alisport.com/eu/eng/silent2.htm


'Ben Flewett' wrote in message
...
What? I don't know of any 13 span glider that comes
close to an LS4.

Knocking a couple of meters off the wings doesn't
reduce
your manufacturing costs much. If you're going to
build a glider it's worth the extra $$$ to make it
15M. Otherwise you end up with a PW5.

Ben.


Bob Kuykendall wrote:


At production run rates of several thousand gliders
per manufacturer
per year, I would guess that it would be economically
viable to apply
existing manufacturing technologies that could drastically
reduce the
per-unit price of a typical 15-meter glider. And
by
drastically, I
mean between to between a quarter and a third of
current
prices.


Many people say they would be delighted to have a
glider with the
performance of an LS4. This performance can now be
achieved with a
smaller span glider of 13 M or less. Can you guess
at the cost reduction
that would be possible with a 12 or 13 meter glider
compared to the 15M
LS4? Smaller factory, less materials, less labor
(especially
if hand
finishing is needed), smaller trailer, lower shipping
costs (RO-RO is by
volume, I think).


Eric

"Janusz Kesik" wrote in message ...
U¿ytkownik "Mike Hessington"
napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci ...
You can't fly your friends in a PW6. They will be
to busy laughing at you.

But You may leave them behind with an SZD-55 (and still with 4500Euro in
pocket to buy them an evening beer which will improve their mood). :P

There is several problems with the SZD 55; the manufacturer has very
poor web site and the information contained on those couple of pages
is very limited, it lacks photo gallery for each of its products.
People like to see what they intend to buy. Next, the SZD rep is
located in Toronto, Canada....well, if the factory has any intention
of selling the SZD gliders here in the U.S.A. they need to have a rep
on the West Coast or Southern U.S. Do you really think that average
people in this country know anything about the SZD? I seriously doubt
it. Most of people who buy gliders buy them from friends, club
members, etc. So, the representation of the SZD gliders is almost non
existing in the Western and Southern U.S. Is the comparison between
LS4 and SZD 55 a valid one? I don't think so. LS4 is very docile...can
this be said about the 55? Would you like to compare a stall in LS4
and SZD55? How about SZD 55 being flown by low time pilot?!!!
Especially flying downwind to base or base to final?!!! SZD 55 is for
sure an excellent sailplane but for more seasoned pilots.
Now, if it comes to quality of Polish built gliders: THEY CAN BUILT
THEM AS NICE AS THE GERMAN MANUFACTURERS CAN. End of story. Some of
the German gliders are built in Czech Republic and Slovenia; that
means outside of Germany.
But most the people have legitimate concerns: price of the
gliders...and now the Euro and Dollar exchange. I want to buy a new
glider but simply put...I will delay my purchase until the dollar will
have more favorable exchange rate. Also, most the european
manufacturers will see a big impact, affecting their production,
because individuals in the U.S.A. were buying more new gliders then
any other countries. So, the European manufacturers can adjust their
prices for the U.S. market or...massive layoffs? to many built gliders
and no buyers? Well, time will show...