Back to square one on buying an Arrow

In article . com,
" wrote:


So do I. The individual who sent the postcards must have realized
this too. In bold letters on the top of the card it said, "I am not a
Broker!". Then it went on to explain that he was an individual buyer
looking for a good airplane.

given the bozos that claim "THIS IS NOT SPAM" on Usenet, it makes it hard to
believe the poor guy who really isn't a broker.

--
Bob Noel
looking for a sig the lawyers will like

I know it's frustrating. It took us several months of "shopping" to find
our Arrow about 7 years ago. Turned out to be an excellent buy for us.

I might make a suggestion that could save you some grief. If you are
considering an airplane some distance from your home, pay a local mechanic
for an hour's time to just have a look at the plane and call you back with
an oral report. The idea is to screen out an obvious dog before you invest
time and money on a visit and formal pre-buy. We used this practice when
shopping for our Arrow, and it saved me from making two needless trips.

If the seller hesitates to allow a potential buyer's representative (the
mechanic) to inspect the plane, well, then you already have your answer.

--
-Elliott Drucker

"Nathan Young" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:38:12 -0800, Jack Allison
wrote:


If the seller seems odd about anything during the sale, that is good
reason to let it go.

Well from the seller's perspective the same goes. I've had good buyers
and bad ones. If a seller has a good plane you better make your decision
quick and follow through because often there's several buyers. I've sold
two planes in the last 5 years. Both were in great shape and low hours.
The first sold in a week. The buyers were great to work with. I didnt
ask for a down payment (never have). They had a local mechanic
do a prebuy .. came and got the plane and everything was cool.

The next was the buyer from Hell. I had several buyers lined up
prior to even deciding to sell based solely on a comment online
that I was contemplating a sale. (Very low time plane, fresh factory
reman, plane literaly like new.) I dealt with the buyers in the
order they contacted me. The guy brought a mechanic and
almost totally disassembled the plane. That's his choice. Played
games with me constantly. Had all the money and documentation
in escrow ready to pull the trigger .. and he was STILL jerking me
around trying to get the price reduced for this or that reason.
Two days after the closing was supposed to take place I finally
sent him an email that said he had two hours to close the deal
or the sale was off. He closed it immediately. Here I was trying to keep my
word with
him in spite of the fact that I had two other buyers that wanted
the plane immediately and would pay more, and he was playing
games with me.

If you have a good plane at a fair market price it WILL sell. My
advice for sellers is if you want to save a lot of grief .. don't deal with
inexperienced
buyers. They'll spare no effort in trying to get price reductions out
of you regardless of the condition of the plane. It's simply not
worth the stress. Deal with someone experienced and knowledgable about
aircraft values.

As a buyer .. if you're a new buyer then get some help from someone
who is knowledgable. Be prepared to pay what an aircraft of the
type your looking for is worth. Some savvy help will let you quickly
know if something is a good prospect or not. You're a lot better off
paying a little more for something that's in good shape and equiped
the way you want .. than buying a bargain and having to spend a
lot of money getting it up to snuff.

Interesting experiences Otis. Thanks for posting.

My
advice for sellers is if you want to save a lot of grief .. don't deal with
inexperienced
buyers. They'll spare no effort in trying to get price reductions out
of you regardless of the condition of the plane. It's simply not
worth the stress. Deal with someone experienced and knowledgable about
aircraft values.

I have to take some exception to a blanket statement here. Personally,
I'm an inexperienced buyer. There is airplane buying/selling experience
in our partnership but two of us have not bought a plane before. We're
not trying to reduce the price regardless of the condition. In this
last deal, we offered full asking price because it represented a fair
value for the plane.


As a buyer .. if you're a new buyer then get some help from someone
who is knowledgable. Be prepared to pay what an aircraft of the
type your looking for is worth. Some savvy help will let you quickly
know if something is a good prospect or not. You're a lot better off
paying a little more for something that's in good shape and equiped
the way you want .. than buying a bargain and having to spend a
lot of money getting it up to snuff.

Definitely agree here. IMHO, our partnership falls into this camp.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

If the seller seems odd about anything during the sale, that is good
reason to let it go.

Well from the seller's perspective the same goes. I've had good buyers
and bad ones.

I have a somewhat unique perspective here, as I have met both the potential
buyer (Jack) and the seller. (Last week I flew to Wisconsin to lend a
casual eye to the bird for Jack.)

In this case, I'd say both parties were "good", but distance and
circumstances conspired against the sale. IMHO, here's why:

1. Jack is 1500 miles away
2. The seller had a local buyer that was interested in the plane.
3. Jack understandably wanted a pre-buy inspection conducted at a "neutral"
location.
4. The seller was understandably wary of letting his prized Arrow be
dismantled by an unknown shop, especially in light of #2, above.
5. The seller made personal contact with the "neutral" shop that made him
even more uncomfortable.
6. The seller started to ponder the awful possibility that (a) the "neutral"
shop could tear his plane apart and find something wrong, which would (b)
cause his erstwhile potential buyers -- located inconveniently on the other
side of the continent -- to withdraw from the deal and (c) potentially leave
him to pay the "neutral" shop for the work, if Jack and his partners turned
out to be nefarious cretins.

All of these factors came into play -- most importantly #2. IMHO, without
#2 the seller might well have silently swallowed his worries, and gone
through with the deal.

But who knows? The whole experience can be frustrating, but in this case
it's probably all for the best that the deal fell apart.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

First off, my apoligies to Jack for any perceived offense about my
new buyer remark. Since he has experienced buyers involved as
partners it really doesn't apply to him and is simply based on my
experience.

Two of my previous sales were with buyers located far away. I simply
never let a plane I'm selling go somewhere else for the prebuy. That
eliminates the fear of the plane being taken apart and being held
hostage to an unscrupulous buyer controlled A/P. What I
do is make arrangements with my home shop to make available space
and any needed equipment (at my expense) in their shop. Then the
prebuy mechanic can come there and do the prebuy. And my
mechanic can deal with fixing anything they want fixed. I haven't had
any objections to this and it's worked well for all concerned.




"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:a6uYd.59212$r55.44222@attbi_s52...
If the seller seems odd about anything during the sale, that is good
reason to let it go.

Well from the seller's perspective the same goes. I've had good buyers
and bad ones.

I have a somewhat unique perspective here, as I have met both the
potential buyer (Jack) and the seller. (Last week I flew to Wisconsin to
lend a casual eye to the bird for Jack.)

In this case, I'd say both parties were "good", but distance and
circumstances conspired against the sale. IMHO, here's why:

1. Jack is 1500 miles away
2. The seller had a local buyer that was interested in the plane.
3. Jack understandably wanted a pre-buy inspection conducted at a
"neutral" location.
4. The seller was understandably wary of letting his prized Arrow be
dismantled by an unknown shop, especially in light of #2, above.
5. The seller made personal contact with the "neutral" shop that made him
even more uncomfortable.
6. The seller started to ponder the awful possibility that (a) the
"neutral" shop could tear his plane apart and find something wrong, which
would (b) cause his erstwhile potential buyers -- located inconveniently
on the other side of the continent -- to withdraw from the deal and (c)
potentially leave him to pay the "neutral" shop for the work, if Jack and
his partners turned out to be nefarious cretins.

All of these factors came into play -- most importantly #2. IMHO,
without #2 the seller might well have silently swallowed his worries, and
gone through with the deal.

But who knows? The whole experience can be frustrating, but in this case
it's probably all for the best that the deal fell apart.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I used to have a Tiger and also have a couple hundred hours
in Arrows. And a Tiger will not blow the doors off an Arrow. The
numbers are real close for both planes. In fact .. while considering
Arrows and Tigers .. I chose a Tiger. With the Tiger you have virtually
the same numbers without the maintenance of folding wheels and
constant speed prop. And they're WAY more fun to fly.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Another Arrow deal gone south

Is it only me, or does anybody realize that a Grumman Tiger that is
tuned well
and in good condition will blow the doors off an ARROW! Try one out
and then
decide if you really want to pay for the annuals for the retractable
every year.
I am not selling mine right now so this is not a promo, just a
suggestion to
compare. You might just be convinced.

Bill Oparowski
N10SX

OtisWinslow wrote:
First off, my apoligies to Jack for any perceived offense about my
new buyer remark. Since he has experienced buyers involved as
partners it really doesn't apply to him and is simply based on my
experience.

No sweat Otis, no offense taken. I freely admit that I'm a newbie
airplane buyer and, while I'm learning a ton, it's a first time
experience and I'm bound to miss some things. I'm thankful that our
partnership does have ownership experience though. I'm also grateful
for the advice received in my recent posts. Whether it's ideas like Jim
Burns and working with the FAA database to create leads or experiences
like yours, I learn some things and get some good advice.


Two of my previous sales were with buyers located far away. I simply
never let a plane I'm selling go somewhere else for the prebuy. That
eliminates the fear of the plane being taken apart and being held
hostage to an unscrupulous buyer controlled A/P. What I
do is make arrangements with my home shop to make available space
and any needed equipment (at my expense) in their shop. Then the
prebuy mechanic can come there and do the prebuy. And my
mechanic can deal with fixing anything they want fixed. I haven't had
any objections to this and it's worked well for all concerned.

This is a great idea Otis. A nice compromise between buyer and seller.
Now, if I could just find an Arrow located a short hop away from my
home airport.

Jay - thanks for posting your experience here as your unique position in
this whole adventure does provide a good perspective.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

In article a6uYd.59212$r55.44222@attbi_s52,
"Jay Honeck" wrote:

In this case, I'd say both parties were "good", but distance and
circumstances conspired against the sale. IMHO, here's why:

2. The seller had a local buyer that was interested in the plane.
4. .... especially in light of #2, above.
All of these factors came into play -- most importantly #2. IMHO, without
#2 the seller might well have silently swallowed his worries, and gone
through with the deal.

fwiw - it really bothers me that there being another potential buyer could have
been a major factor (I'm not saying it was in fact, all we have is Jay's
impression). Maybe it's just me, but if a seller takes a deposit and starts
the sell/buy process with a buyer, then other potential buyers should not
be a consideration.

But who knows? The whole experience can be frustrating, but in this case
it's probably all for the best that the deal fell apart.

Agreed. For me, letting the airplane go somewhere else, especially if I
had a bad experience with the neutral shop, would like stop a deal.

--
Bob Noel
looking for a sig the lawyers will like

Hey, I'll tell you a story. Actually happened. Jack was running an FBO.
He maintained a Cessna 337 for a doctor. Doctor wants to sell and asks
Jack to sell it, Jack gets a comission. So a guy comes down from 800
miles away and checks the plane out, says yes I'll take it. Gives Jack
a $10K deposit with $120K to be paid upon delivery. Buyer flies home.
So Jack gets one of his instructors to deliver the plane, with
instructions to pick up the check and fly commercial back. So this
instructor flies the 337 to the buyers home field. Buyer gives him an
envelope with one of those glasseen windows in it with a Cashiers check
in it. Instructor flies back with the check. Jack takes the check out.
You know how when they issue a Cashiers check they give you a carbon
copy? Well, it's the carbon copy, not the check! So Jack figures honest
mistake and calls the buyer and says "we've got to talk about how you
are going to get us the check for the airplane". Buyer says, "No, what
we're going to talk about is how much I'm going to pay you for the
airplane".

There is an ending to this story.