Any plans-built "RV equivalents" out there?

(Daniel) wrote in
om:

Morgans wrote...

I can't imagine even Sonex complaining about an autopilot.


Modifications, even sensible ones, (or even the discussion thereof)
have gotten Sonex builders banned from the company mailing lists, a
declaration of being an "enemy", a revocation of the right to call
their planes Sonexes, threats of physical harm, an end to all builder
support, and omission or removal from the publicized list of
completions. Exceptions are made for such things as seat cushions.

Daniel


Well, I know of only one builder who was banned from the Sonex list and
he just rubbed the owner & his son the wrong way. The only
modifications he made was toe brakes, and custom cowl. Actually I think
he really got banned for telling them to lighten up too many times.

BUT you could very quietly scratch build a Sonex for less than $15K with
a *gasp* Corvair engine (Keep that VERY quiet until you order everything
you think your gonna need from Sonex) in about 1200 hours and bore holes
in the sky at 150-160mph cruise. OR for about $35K total and around 800
hours build the kit with a Jabiru 3300.

To compare that to RV building you could very well build 2 or 3 Sonex
for the cost and time invested in an RV.

NOW, the RV is without a doubt more plane, and currenty better resale %
I will not argue that!



--
-- ET :-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

"ET" wrote in message

BUT you could very quietly scratch build a Sonex for less than $15K with
a *gasp* Corvair engine (Keep that VERY quiet until you order everything
you think your gonna need from Sonex) in about 1200 hours and bore holes
in the sky at 150-160mph cruise. OR for about $35K total and around 800
hours build the kit with a Jabiru 3300.

Interesting idea from a cost standpoint. But, that's another problem I'd
have - engine choices. I can understand the factory view on this - they
don't want to support a zillion different choices or be part of someone
else's huge experiment (or subsequent lawsuits) - but I'd be alot more
comfortable if at least *one* of the choices was something more
"traditional" - e.g. O-200 - but there are no such choices that come in
under their strict 200 lb. weight limit 8-(.....

Personally, I would never really feel secure flying a VW and I've heard
the Jabirus are pretty much CNC'd versions of the same. (I'm not
trying to start any arguments/discussion! Note that I said "personally").
As for the Corvair, the folks who like them make a pretty good case
for their reasons and Wm Wynne has clearly done alot of good work,
but I'm still going to sit on the fence for awhile (until there are ALOT
more hours in the air)...8-)

Besides - Sonex says "No way"........8-)

Earlier, Netgeek wrote:

I've been searching quite a bit for
something equivalent or similar to an
RV-9 but available as a plans-built...

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that all of the RVs are
available as staged kits - that is, tail, then wings, then fuselage,
then finishing kit. That helps spread the cost out to some degree.

Cost-wise, I think that the RVs compare favorably with
scratch-building. Especially when you figure in the time it takes to
track down all the different materials and the costs to have them
shipped. You also have to figure in the time it takes to make blanks,
forms, dies, and jigs, and tweak them to make usable parts. And you
need to figure in the inevitable scrap parts that aren't
flight-article-worthy.

Back when I did cost-analysis on the HP-18 sailplane kit, I can
remember comparing it to the more refined RV-4 kit and wondering how
Dick V. could deliver so much for so little. The answer, of course, is
volume...

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24

"Netgeek" wrote in
:


"ET" wrote in message

BUT you could very quietly scratch build a Sonex for less than $15K
with a *gasp* Corvair engine (Keep that VERY quiet until you order
everything you think your gonna need from Sonex) in about 1200 hours
and bore holes in the sky at 150-160mph cruise. OR for about $35K
total and around 800 hours build the kit with a Jabiru 3300.

Interesting idea from a cost standpoint. But, that's another problem
I'd have - engine choices. I can understand the factory view on this
- they don't want to support a zillion different choices or be part of
someone else's huge experiment (or subsequent lawsuits) - but I'd be
alot more comfortable if at least *one* of the choices was something
more "traditional" - e.g. O-200 - but there are no such choices that
come in under their strict 200 lb. weight limit 8-(.....

Personally, I would never really feel secure flying a VW and I've
heard the Jabirus are pretty much CNC'd versions of the same. (I'm not
trying to start any arguments/discussion! Note that I said
"personally"). As for the Corvair, the folks who like them make a
pretty good case for their reasons and Wm Wynne has clearly done alot
of good work, but I'm still going to sit on the fence for awhile
(until there are ALOT more hours in the air)...8-)

Besides - Sonex says "No way"........8-)




Heh!

Yeah, I'd trust a Jabiru though any day. Regardless of it's "roots"
it's a very stout reiliable engine (esp. the 3300). I just refuse to
pay $15 grand for one!

If you really want "traditional" go for a Cessna-Piper grin

Good luck in your search!


--
-- ET :-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

"Netgeek" wrote in message
...

"Dave Hyde" wrote in message
...
As has been posted already, the -9 plans might be sufficient for
scratch-building one. The -4 plans are (or were when I got mine).
If you think you lack building skills, however, be advised that
scratch building one requires alot more skill than building
from a kit. The initial parts cost is less, but you'll almost
certainly screw up more parts, and it's going to take a LOT
longer.

I think the decision has been pretty much made - to build an
RV9 from a kit. My delusions about building from plans have been
pretty well shattered for now - maybe next time (in a different life).
Even so - I'll bet a few beers that it will take me longer than most
others and I'll figure out how to to screw it up better than most 8-).

Time will tell - fortunately I've got lots of time (I think - and hope!).



May I suggest that you hook up with a local EAA chapter? The
one I below to (www.eaa326.org) is VERY RV oriented, and
lots of people to give you advice, encouragement, and help
along the way.

In article ,
Montblack wrote:

http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/...&action=search

or if the link 'wraps', go to vansaircraft.com & search the accessory
catalog for 'autopilot'.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?I4C1422AA
(same link as above with Make a Shorter Link)

http://tinyurl.com/4lk8m
(same link with TinyURL)

Forget TinyURL, EvilURL is more fun:

http://evilurl.com/pornoboobwhore
(same link as above)

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

If you must have an aluminum plane, check out Jim Bede's new design, the
BD-18. This is an update of Bede's BD-1, which became the Grumman Yankee.
It's lighter than the Yankee with a smaller wing and can be powered by a
Jabiru orr Lycoming. The plans are $500, but I understand Bede's plans are
among the best in the business.
http://www.bedecorp.com/designs/bd18/intro.htm


I'm glad someone mentioned the Emeraude. Another venerable wood and fabric
design is the Jodel, which is similar to the Emeraurde but has a unique
"bent" wing. Some of the smaller simpler models ones can be built in 1000
hours or therabouts.

Cruise speed is probably not going to match the Van's models but stall speed
will be lower and Jodels are famous for being some of the nicest flying
planes in the world. The are noted for their great stability and make a fine
IFR platfroms.

One unique thing about Jodels is that they are certified designs that can
also be built by amateurs from plans. You can still get the plans from the
original firm that built thousands of certified Jodels, most of which are
still flying in all corners of the world.

Jodels are very popular with homebuilders in Europe and Australia where the
rules for homebuilt airplanes are much tougher and designs must be
"approved" by the authorities. The official Jodel website is here (in
French) http://www.avionhttp://www.avions-jo...m/s-jodel.com/

This website is in English and is a great reference for Jodels.
http://www.jodel.com/index.asp

The Canadian Falconar series is derivative of the Jodel designs:
http://www.falconaravia.com/

There is a very lively Jodel group on Yahoo, with hundreds of fanatical
Jodel owners and builders around the world. There are probably more Jodels
flying worldwide than Van's RVs. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jodel/

One of the advantages of wooden airframes is that they soak up noise and
vibration quite effectively. If you ever get a chance to fly in a Jodel,
Emeraude or Falco, going back to a spam can will seem like quite a step
down.

Regards,

Gordon Arnaut
Ontario, Canada

"Gordon Arnaut" wrote in message
...
If you must have an aluminum plane, check out Jim Bede's new design, the
BD-18. This is an update of Bede's BD-1, which became the Grumman Yankee.
It's lighter than the Yankee with a smaller wing and can be powered by a
Jabiru orr Lycoming. The plans are $500, but I understand Bede's plans are
among the best in the business.
http://www.bedecorp.com/designs/bd18/intro.htm

Has it flown yet? How many are flying, and how many hours?

Useful load seems low. Put two people in for sport weight, and there will
be no luggage, and not much fuel.

Some here will say, beware of Bede. This looks like vaporware, pictures by
photoshop.
--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" wrote in message
...
Has it flown yet? How many are flying, and how many hours?


How dare you ask the obvious.

Hey Guys,

I'm not trying to promote Jime Bede. I've never even owned a Yankee or any
of Jim's other designs -- alhtough I know several Grumanns owners and they
are excellent flying airplanes.

The BD-18 does seem like "vaporware" right now, but the smaller single-seat
BD-17 has flown and I don't see why the BD-18 shouldn't fly just fine.

Another possibility for building an aluminum two-seater from plans is Chris
Heintz's Zenith 601 series. With a Lyc 235 max cruise is "only" 138mph, but
stall would be lower than on an RV-9. The Zenith actually has a little more
wing area than the RV with a max weight that is conisederably lower.

You can use a Rotax 912, Jabiru, Continental O-200, or Lycoming on this
plane, or even a Corvair. Lots of people build these from scratch and they
use pulled "Avex" rivets, so no bucking -- which means they go together a
lot quicker.

Personally, I understand Netgeek's point about wanting to build from
scratch. While Van's prices are very attractive compared to what's out
there, I think the actual material costs are probably only a fraction of
that. There are lots of people who build metal planes from scratch. I know a
couple of guys who are building all-metal Polliwagons.

Regards,

Gordon.

PS: I would still rather build a wood plane.


"C.D.Damron" wrote in message
news:Ibu5e.2589$8Z6.1278@attbi_s21...

"Morgans" wrote in message
...
Has it flown yet? How many are flying, and how many hours?


How dare you ask the obvious.