Mountain flying knowledge required?

Scott D. wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 21:50:19 -0700, "Matt Barrow"
wrote:

Yup, missed the "or" at the end of the line.

Well, excuuuuuseeee me!! :~)


Figured that was what happened. I too will speed read through
something and miss a key word.


I read slowly and still miss a lot. I use the excuse that my eyes aren't as
good as they used to be.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
.net...
Rotors do not extend much above the ridgetops. The waves themselves are
smooth until reaching the tropopause except the extreme case of breaking
waves.


Agreed! I find 2000 or so above the highest terrain helps, though it's not a
sure bet.

TurboNormalizing is the best thing since sliced bread. :~)


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Toño" wrote in message
...
Blanche wrote:


And what happens if the engine conks out? Where do you land? How do you
land?

Maybe he should also take glider lessons, mountain survival, parachuting,
and aerobatics prior to the flight. I mean, those disciplines have just
as much relevance if not more should a forced landing be immanent.

How does a knowledge of mountain flying help you to land with and engine
out? And how would that differ from any other no-engine landing?
About the only thing I could think of would be to try to estimate winds
and direction based on terrain features. Read Sparky's book and you have
some theory to work off of but, really....do you think that this would
sufficiently arm you for an encounter with the winds in the mountains? If
you do then you have never flown *in* the mountains!

As far as *where* you land...you land wherever you can; as in
non-mountainous terrain.

And when that happens, all of a sudden you need to worry about
mountain waves, density altitude, valley winds, etc. Calculate
glide distance from 16K and tell me where & how you're going to
land.

Well...if you know how far you can glide at 1000 ft you can multiply by
sixteen. But that calculation would only give you the no-wind theoretical
distance. It also something every pilot should know regardless of whether
they are in the mountains or not.

And, come on! Are you really going to pull out the ole' whiz wheel and
think about "...density altitude, valley winds, etc." when you are
dead-sticking it to a suitable landing site? Generally, you *might* have
one place to land that is suitable and you can bet your gold-plated E6B
you'll take it regardless of the "density altitude".


I have always considered mountain flying to be flying *in* the mountains
and the things that concern a mountain pilot to be at or below the peaks.
Is this incorrect?


yes.

Really? And minus the engine out scenario, you think the guy cruising
over the peaks at 16-19,000 ft is in need of *mountain flying* skills?
That ain't *mountain flying* in my book...neither is it in
Sparký's.(Which, I agree, is a great book!)

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree.

Antonio

Yes and well said. I have lived and flown in mountianous terrain for almost
as long as I have been flying. Like Peter R's proposed trip, I am mostly
flying "over the mountains" from one real airport to another. You don't
need "mountain flying'" instruction to do this kind of flying, you need some
common sense and weather awareness and you have to recognize your
limitations and the limitations of your equipment. If you are going to be
flying into backcountry airstrips in ID where you are actually flying "in
and amongst" the mountains you need more awareness and mountain flying
training can be benificial. If you are going to be landing on "one way"
strips or operating on skiis then training becomes a necessity.

Flying accidents in the mountains usually involve a lot of risk taking or
improper IFR procedures. It is not the mountains themselves that cause the
problem, they just provide the unforgiving terrain that makes the outcome
fatal. When pilots take off with high winds at ridge level, IMC or
thunderstorms in low performance aircraft they have no "outs". They can't
climb to smooth air, they can't control the airplane the turbulence and they
hit something. Some simply take off on a perfect day at a density altitude
beyond the airplane capibility and crash into the first trees off the end of
the runway. Many "mountain" accidents are caused by improper IFR
proceedure. There is an approach into Butte, MT that has a turn at the VOR.
A few miles away there is a mountain with several wrecked airplanes on it
that didn't make the turn. None of these things applies to Peter R's flight
from one paved airport to another in a turbocharged Bonanza flying in day
VMC unless he feels the need to operate over gross weight.

All the focus on landing in the mountains after and engine failure baffles
me. I know of exactly one meadow suitable for landing a high performance
single in the Sierra. A pilot with 2000hrs of flying time over the Sierra
flying charter at 12-14,000' (lower than I fly) says that there are, in
fact, two such meadows. Unless you are flying a Super Cub type airplane,
you can pretty much forget about walking away from an engine out "landing"
in the Sierra.

Mike
MU-2 for flying "over" the mountains
Helio Courier H295 for flying "in" the mountains.

"tony roberts" wrote in message
news:nospam-77BFC6.20093724042005@shawnews...
Wrong. You fly on the downwind side, also known as the updraft side.
If you lose your engine and you are in a downdraft just how smart is
that? You don't knowingly fly in downdrafts, unless of course you want
to go down.

I guess we'll agree to differ.
I live in the mountains.
All of my flying is in the mountains.
I did my mountain flying training with some of the best.
I'll do it exactly the way I explained in my last post.

And I will admit that what you are describing is the way that most 300
hour flight instructors in the USA are taught to teach it. But I did my
mountain flying training with two Alaska bush pilots who are two of the
best. And they taught me consistently, never fly on the more favourable
side - because you have nowhere to go if you need to turn. You should
ALWAYS be able to turn into lift when flying canyons.

That's fine. This group is all about difference of opinion and debate -
that's how we learn. This time, we just happen to be on different sides
of the question

Tony


Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

How did you determine that these two pilots are "two of the best"? There
are hundreds if not thousands of bush pilots in AK all of whom think that
they are among the best. The only ones who don't think this are certain
that they are "the" very best.

In the case you are describing, flying on the upwind side, you are vastly
more likely to fly into the other side of the canyon because you will be
turning downwind, increasing the turn radius dramatically. Sure, there are
situations where starting on the upwind side might be better but saying that
the upwind side is *always* better is nuts. In fact, nearly every bush
pilot and mountain flying instructor flys on the downwind side.

Mike
MU-2, ATP
Helio Courier, Student Pilot

In article , Peter Duniho wrote:
Of course, there is the question of whether mountain wave can actually push
you into the ground.

Wave won't push you into the ground, however, if you're approaching a
ridge from the downwind side and the wind's up, the 'curlover' on the
downwind side may well cause you to impact the ridge. This is why it's
advisable to approach ridges at a 45 deg. angle and with altitude to
spare so you can turn away if there's trouble.

Wave can be a factor way up above FL350 - gliders from Minden regularly
get up in the FL300+ range. Even our little 2000' mountain, Snaefell,
generates wave which reaches over 10,000 ft.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

In article , Tango Whiskey wrote:
read a good mountain flying book like Sparky Imerson's you'll be good to go

Sparky Imeson has a mountain flying website with lots of good stuff:

http://www.mountainflying.com/

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

In article , Stefan wrote:
And before you ask: I've been flying mostly in mountains, too. Mostly in
gliders, the rest in vastly underpowered planes (80 to 100 hp). Learn to
use the weather instead of fighting it.

Agreed. When I was flying my woefully underpowered C140 in the
mountains, I made extensive use of ridge lift. But I'm also a glider
pilot.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Peter Duniho wrote:

Is there an altitude above the ridge line at which the "mountain wave"
effect isn't significant?

Can you please not screw up the quote attributions? You left my name on an
attribution from which you trimmed everything I wrote.

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Depending on the wind situation, you can expect downdrafts of 10 fpm or
even more. No light single will outclimb this, even less at altitude.

You need to recalibrate your vertical speed reference. 10 fpm (or 20 fpm,
as you wrote elsewhere) is 10 feet per minute. That's nothing, and quite a
bit less than any actual up or down that one might find due to mountain wave
or similar effects.

I have no idea what you meant to write, but it's absolutely false that "no
light single will outclimb" 10 fpm downdraft.

Pete

"Newps" wrote in message
...


Chris W wrote:
mindenpilot wrote:

You can expect LARGE updrafts and downdrafts.
It is important to know where they may occur in relation to the mountain
ridge.
Like I said, if you actually fly in it a couple times, it becomes a
little more obvious.

Is there an altitude above the ridge line at which the "mountain wave"
effect isn't significant?

Not for your plane. Airlines will reroute around these areas to avoid
mountain wave.

But they do it because the wave system often gets turbulent up by the
tropopause where they are flying. In the mid altitudes the wave is smooth.

Mike
MU-2