engine shop pireps wanted

Jay Honeck wrote:
The engine is a Lycoming IO-360-A1B6D, 750 hours since first major in
Aug 2001


Am I the only one here that finds that appalling? An IO-360 is generally
considered to be one of the most bullet-proof engines ever built -- what the
heck caused the cam to spall so quickly? With over 15 hours per month of
usage, it's not like the engine sat unused for very long -- so you should
have had plenty of lubrication on those lobes.

Who overhauled it *last* time?

I think that's probably not a relevant question. Chances are the can was not
replaced. It was inspected and found to be in tolerance. Most owners with an
in-tolerance cam will elect not to replace it.

Stephen N Mills wrote:
Advice? Any advice about the path to take, and any pireps on the three
engine shops mentioned (or any others) will be most humbly and
gratefully received.

If you're just replacing the cam, you don't need an overhaul shop.

Either way, replacing the cam or the complete overhaul, I'd go with a local shop
rather than shipping parts all over the country. Just imagine what happens when
everything doesn't quite come together right afterward, and you are pursuing
warrantee fulfillment with a shop several states away. Even if the shop is
desirous of helping, the distance makes it a hassle. There's got to be someplace
in Atlanta or nearby that can do the work.

wrote:


If your cam went bad that soon after overhaul, I'm wondering if it was
replaced, or at least refurbished, at that time. Remember, to be acceptable
for use in an overhaul a part needs to meet only "service limits". An owner
can demand better, but the cost of the overhaul rises accordingly.

Cams are not usually replaced at overhaul. Price an overhaul with and without
cam replacement and you'll see why.

Dave Butler wrote:

Cams are not usually replaced at overhaul. Price an overhaul with and without
cam replacement and you'll see why.

It depends on who's quoting. I don't think Lyc. reuses cams on their
overhauls. I just had a Superior Millenium overhaul done on my O-360
and the price included a new cam. Their take was that the overhaul is
being done to new specs and a reground cam will not meet new specs.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

Advice? Any advice about the path to take, and any pireps on the three
engine shops mentioned (or any others) will be most humbly and
gratefully received.

If you're just replacing the cam, you don't need an overhaul shop.

Either way, replacing the cam or the complete overhaul, I'd go with a local shop
rather than shipping parts all over the country.

That's a great point.

We have been very happy with our decision to use our local shop to
rebuild our O-540 in 2002. Although you still end up shipping *some*
parts all over the place, and (of course) the new engine parts come
from the factory. (In our case, Superior, which has allowed us to
dodge ALL of the Lycoming O-540 ADs thus far...)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

wrote:

Dave Butler wrote:

Cams are not usually replaced at overhaul. Price an overhaul with and without
cam replacement and you'll see why.


It depends on who's quoting. I don't think Lyc. reuses cams on their
overhauls. I just had a Superior Millenium overhaul done on my O-360
and the price included a new cam. Their take was that the overhaul is
being done to new specs and a reground cam will not meet new specs.

A quick search didn't find any statement from Lycoming itself, but this article

http://www.aopa.org/pilot/tripacer/tripacer9808.htm

says:
"Lycoming offers both factory remanufactured and overhauled engines.
Remanufactured engines have essentially all-new parts but may use some major
overhauled components such as cases, crankshaft, and accessory gears. Lycoming
builds remans with new cylinders, pistons, camshafts, and ancillaries like the
oil pump. With the Lycoming overhaul, you may end up with more used, overhauled
parts..."

Jay Honeck wrote:


Advice? Any advice about the path to take, and any pireps on the three
engine shops mentioned (or any others) will be most humbly and
gratefully received.

If you're just replacing the cam, you don't need an overhaul shop.

Either way, replacing the cam or the complete overhaul, I'd go with a local shop
rather than shipping parts all over the country.


That's a great point.

We have been very happy with our decision to use our local shop to
rebuild our O-540 in 2002. Although you still end up shipping *some*
parts all over the place, and (of course) the new engine parts come
from the factory. (In our case, Superior, which has allowed us to
dodge ALL of the Lycoming O-540 ADs thus far...)

On the other hand, if you are planning to sell before your next TBO, you
might consider a nationally known shop. In general, I think buyers
prefer an engine by a nationally known shop instead of a local guy they
know nothing about (assuming you want to be able to sell to non-local
buyers). I know when I have looked at engine logbooks, an overhaul by a
small shop that I can't find information on by googling is a turnoff.

Seems to me that for this decision you need to understand what the
other parts
are like. What kind of OH was it? New cylinders?

A wise mechanic who OH one of my engines always put in new camshafts.
His
theory: You hang the camshaft on a string and build the engine around
it. A re-ground
one might not make it thru the second OH.

So was this last OH to service limits? If so, it's talking to you. If
it was a decent OH,
you might be tempted to repair it.

Bill Hale

"Stephen N Mills" wrote in message
...
Vicky, our '75 Cardinal RG, is sick. We changed the oil and got a
report of iron in the oil analysis (from Blackstone) and iron
particles in the filter (from Second OilPinion). Hmmm... 26 tach hours
later, same thing. Pulled a cylinder: yep, cam spalling. (Assume
wailing, rending of garments, gnashing of teeth here)

The engine is a Lycoming IO-360-A1B6D, 750 hours since first major in
Aug 2001

Other factors: 9000 hours on the airframe. Fresh paint, poor (not
'bad') interior. Decent IFR avionics: GX60, KX155 w/ GS, GTX327,
JPI-700, no autopilot. 750 (+?) hours on the dry vacuum pump; this
will be replaced at this time. Also will be replacing with the
lightweight starter.

Human factors: myself and two partners; one of whom is inactive and
has been looking to sell out. We fly about 200 hours a year. With a
new partner, we expect to increase that.

Options: Our A&P is leaning towards a major overhaul rather than just
a cam replacement. I am concerned about possible other damage to the
engine from those iron particles riding around in the oil. But our
inactive partner (I haven't talked to him yet) will probably want to
get out for minimum bucks. Active partner and I are looking at
long-term value. We plan on owning this plane for a long time.

Costs: Our A&P has recommended three engine shops: America's Aircraft
(OK), Airmark Engines (FL), and Graham Engines (GA). I have talked to
all three. Each advised cam replacement, not major overhaul. The price
seems to be about $2000 for our A&P to r&r the engine, ?? for
shipping, and $5000 to $6000 to the engine shop. Time frame of about 3
to 4 weeks at the shop. All of this assumes no additional problems
are found when they open it up.

Wither? While active partner and I would love to get a factory reman'd
non-D engine, that does not seem reasonable. And we don't even want to
think about the cost of that. And even doing a major would move our
current bill from about $8000 to $17000 or more.

Advice? Any advice about the path to take, and any pireps on the three
engine shops mentioned (or any others) will be most humbly and
gratefully received.


N2679V, 'Vicky' '75 RG @ PDK, Atlanta
Steve Mills, in major bummed-out mode

"DL" wrote in message news:...

"Stephen N Mills" wrote in message
...
Vicky, our '75 Cardinal RG, is sick. We changed the oil and got a
report of iron in the oil analysis (from Blackstone) and iron
particles in the filter (from Second OilPinion). Hmmm... 26 tach hours
later, same thing. Pulled a cylinder: yep, cam spalling. (Assume
wailing, rending of garments, gnashing of teeth here)

The engine is a Lycoming IO-360-A1B6D, 750 hours since first major in
Aug 2001

Other factors: 9000 hours on the airframe. Fresh paint, poor (not
'bad') interior. Decent IFR avionics: GX60, KX155 w/ GS, GTX327,
JPI-700, no autopilot. 750 (+?) hours on the dry vacuum pump; this
will be replaced at this time. Also will be replacing with the
lightweight starter.

Human factors: myself and two partners; one of whom is inactive and
has been looking to sell out. We fly about 200 hours a year. With a
new partner, we expect to increase that.

Options: Our A&P is leaning towards a major overhaul rather than just
a cam replacement. I am concerned about possible other damage to the
engine from those iron particles riding around in the oil. But our
inactive partner (I haven't talked to him yet) will probably want to
get out for minimum bucks. Active partner and I are looking at
long-term value. We plan on owning this plane for a long time.

Costs: Our A&P has recommended three engine shops: America's Aircraft
(OK), Airmark Engines (FL), and Graham Engines (GA). I have talked to
all three. Each advised cam replacement, not major overhaul. The price
seems to be about $2000 for our A&P to r&r the engine, ?? for
shipping, and $5000 to $6000 to the engine shop. Time frame of about 3
to 4 weeks at the shop. All of this assumes no additional problems
are found when they open it up.

Wither? While active partner and I would love to get a factory reman'd
non-D engine, that does not seem reasonable. And we don't even want to
think about the cost of that. And even doing a major would move our
current bill from about $8000 to $17000 or more.

Advice? Any advice about the path to take, and any pireps on the three
engine shops mentioned (or any others) will be most humbly and
gratefully received.


N2679V, 'Vicky' '75 RG @ PDK, Atlanta
Steve Mills, in major bummed-out mode