CFII instructor as passenger (FAA)

It IS possible for an instructor to give dual instruction without
logging (or being) PIC.

In one instance, I did some instrument training in my aero-club's
Grumman Tiger. The instrument instructor I used was not yet checked out
in the aircraft type in the club. So, from a club insurance point of
view, he was unable to be insured as PIC in that aircraft at that time.

I HAD been checked out by another instructor, and on his suggestion, we
agreed that I was the PIC for the entire flight, and that he was
providing instrument instruction.

Dave

wrote:
Hello,

I can't find a reference for this in the FAR/AIM.

The question, in the context of FAA IR training, is whether

a) I (assume I am legally PIC in the airspace in question) can carry a
CFII as a mere passenger, and

b) can the instructor take over as an instructor at an agreed point in
the flight

c) can the instructor revert to being a passenger at an agreed point
after the training took place

I am sure the answer to a) must be yes - it would be silly otherwise.
It's b) and c) I am not sure about.

Any response would be very interesting - with references please if
anyone feels this is illegal.

Dave S wrote:
It IS possible for an instructor to give dual instruction without
logging (or being) PIC.

Further, the pilot can log PIC even if the instructor is PIC (as
long as he is the sole manipulator of an aircraft for which he
is rated).

Further, the instructor can log PIC time while giving instruction
regardless of who is actually the PIC.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
...
Dave S wrote:
It IS possible for an instructor to give dual instruction without logging
(or being) PIC.

Further, the pilot can log PIC even if the instructor is PIC (as
long as he is the sole manipulator of an aircraft for which he
is rated).

Further, the instructor can log PIC time while giving instruction
regardless of who is actually the PIC.

Really? Surely you can only have one PIC?

Perhaps it's different over here (UK), but if an instructor and a student
are flying in conditions that fit the student's current licence entitlement,
then as I see it, _either_ the student can log PIC _or_ the instructor can,
but not both. If the conditions exceed that of the student's licence (e.g.
you're in IMC under tuition for your instrument rating) then the instructor
would be PIC and the student "pilot undergoing tuition"). The only situation
I can think of where you could both "almost" be PIC is when you're having a
practical examination, at which point the examiner is P1 and the student "P1
under supervision".

Though I'm sure someone will find a hole in my logic :-)

D.

Surely you can only have one PIC?

Perhaps it's different over here (UK)

Yes, it's different in the US. We don't speak the King's English.

On this side of the pond, PIC has two different meanings depending on
context. In the context of authority, it means "the person who is the
final authority on the conduct of the flight", and there can be only one
of them. However, in the context of loggable time, it means, among
other things, "sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft in which
he is rated", irrespective of who is the final authority on the flight.
In the same breath, it means "person who is the final authority on the
flight, if a copilot is required". This was probably deliberately
arranged by the FAA to entertain pilots who are waiting thunderstorms
out in some FBO far from home.

The long and the short of it, only one person can be "top dog" on the
flight, but several people can put in their logbook that they had HOT
("hands-on time"). We just use the same word for both.

Jose
r.a.misc stripped, as I don't follow the group
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

David Cartwright wrote:

Really? Surely you can only have one PIC?

You are confusing logging PIC time with actually *being* PIC. They are not the
same in the States.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

Peter wrote:

It's different in the UK, as you say. The FAA rules permit two people
to log "PIC"

actually, more than two can log PIC simultaneously given the
right circumstances :-)

--Sylvain