Commercial Ticket Endeavor

I am currently IFR and have been giving some consideration into going
after the commercial rating. I have been studying the requirements and
wanted to post some questions to the group...

Please bear in mind that I don't typically cut corners when it comes to
safety, but am always looking to save a few $$$ where it makes sense.
After all, this hobby/passion is expensive enough as it is! (I
currently own a 172 and it's all I can do to cover the annual expenses
on it and still have enough left over to put gas in it from time to
time)

My bottom-line question is... How much is this going to cost me and
can I really afford it?

Aside from the 10 hours of complex time (plus the checkride in a
complex airplane) and the instructor costs for those 10 hours, it seems
like most of the requirements may have already been covered in the
instrument training or can be done on your own. For example: The 300
NM XCtry, 5 hr. night-VFR with 10 to's and lndgs. at a towered airport,
....

I know there are some new maneuvers, but those can be learned in the
172 and confirmed in the complex plane as part of the 10 hours.

It just seems to me that most of the requirements may have been met
during previous training and/or by getting out and flying?

Is it reasonable to think that I might be able to:
* Spend 4 or 5 hours in the 172, learning all the new maneuvers for
the checkride (at the cost of fuel and an instructor)
* Spend 10 hours in a complex plane (at the cost of the plane and
instructor), learning the plane and dialing in the maneuvers
* Take the checkride (cost of DE and plane)

If I flew a 2 hr. day XCtry and 2 hr. night XCtry, meeting the NM
requirements, with an instructor while working on the instrument
rating, would that carry-over? Is the requirement that a logbook entry
exist for those elements, or that they were done while training for the
commercial rating?

My ultimate goal is to get the CFI ticket, and let other help support
my habit! ;-)

I'm interested in hearing thoughts or experiences from others.

Best Regards,
Todd

three-eight-hotel wrote:
If I flew a 2 hr. day XCtry and 2 hr. night XCtry, meeting the NM
requirements, with an instructor while working on the instrument
rating, would that carry-over? Is the requirement that a logbook entry
exist for those elements, or that they were done while training for the
commercial rating?


Any cross country you've done in the past for any reason is usable if it meets
the criteria. If you have a reasonably fresh instrument rating you're pretty
good to go. Learning the basics of the required maneuvers in a complex single
may be easier than in your C-172; you've got to burn up 10 hours somehow anyway.

I'd say go for it. I did the same thing myself not so I could earn a living so
much as to get people to ride with me. People who are reluctant to ride with a
private pilot often don't show the same reticence with a commercial one.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

"three-eight-hotel" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am currently IFR and have been giving some consideration into going
after the commercial rating. I have been studying the requirements and
wanted to post some questions to the group...

Please bear in mind that I don't typically cut corners when it comes to
safety, but am always looking to save a few $$$ where it makes sense.
After all, this hobby/passion is expensive enough as it is! (I
currently own a 172 and it's all I can do to cover the annual expenses
on it and still have enough left over to put gas in it from time to
time)

My bottom-line question is... How much is this going to cost me and
can I really afford it?

Aside from the 10 hours of complex time (plus the checkride in a
complex airplane) and the instructor costs for those 10 hours, it seems
like most of the requirements may have already been covered in the
instrument training or can be done on your own. For example: The 300
NM XCtry, 5 hr. night-VFR with 10 to's and lndgs. at a towered airport,
...

I know there are some new maneuvers, but those can be learned in the
172 and confirmed in the complex plane as part of the 10 hours.

It just seems to me that most of the requirements may have been met
during previous training and/or by getting out and flying?

[snip]

I've been toying with this idea, too. I just got my IFR rating last August.
I'd have to look in my log book to see how far that one was. It wasn't at
night, though. Is it 300NM night XC? I've got 1.5 hours in an Arrow to get
my Complex endorsement. So, I'd only need another 8.5. Already had my HP.
Other than going for my CFI, what good does a Commercial do, other than
guarantee my AME a yearly visit, instead of every 3 years? Can I finally
charge a friend of mine for doing aerial photography?

"three-eight-hotel" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am currently IFR and have been giving some consideration into going
after the commercial rating.

You're IFR and you're posting? Shouldn't you be paying attention to the
instruments, and wait until you're back on the ground for Usenet?

[...]
My bottom-line question is... How much is this going to cost me and
can I really afford it?

I don't know whether you can afford it. I can't even tell you how much it
will cost, though obviously you can calculate a minimum cost based on how
much airplanes and instructors cost in your area. The actual cost, likely
to be at least somewhat above the theoretical minimum, will depend on you,
your instructor, and sometimes circumstances beyond either of your control.

Aside from the 10 hours of complex time (plus the checkride in a
complex airplane) and the instructor costs for those 10 hours, it seems
like most of the requirements may have already been covered in the
instrument training or can be done on your own. For example: The 300
NM XCtry, 5 hr. night-VFR with 10 to's and lndgs. at a towered airport,
...

It is true, for many pilots, their every day flying covers much of the basic
aeronautical experience requirements for the Commercial Pilot certificate.
FAR 61.129 has the details you need to know.

I know there are some new maneuvers, but those can be learned in the
172 and confirmed in the complex plane as part of the 10 hours.

Can they? It really depends on the pilot and the instructor. In my own
case, I certainly spent more time learning the maneuvers than I expected to.
Things went more smoothly after I had some time off (medical problems) and
came back to a new instructor.

It just seems to me that most of the requirements may have been met
during previous training and/or by getting out and flying?

Yes, that may well be the case for you.

Is it reasonable to think that I might be able to:
* Spend 4 or 5 hours in the 172, learning all the new maneuvers for
the checkride (at the cost of fuel and an instructor)

I would be surprised if you could learn all of the maneuvers in just 5
hours. There are five tasks in the PTS that are likely brand-new for the
typical Private Pilot, and several more that probably will require at least
some time revisiting to brush up on. It's theoretically possible that you
could learn each of the new maneuvers in 1 hour each, but it seems unlikely.

For what it's worth, I used a 172 to learn the maneuvers, but frankly I
found the complex airplane I intended to use for the checkride -- the
Cardinal RG -- to be much easier to fly. I wouldn't call either the 172 or
the 177RG "precise" airplanes, but the Cardinal certainly had better "feel"
to it, IMHO.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

* Spend 10 hours in a complex plane (at the cost of the plane and
instructor), learning the plane and dialing in the maneuvers
* Take the checkride (cost of DE and plane)

If I flew a 2 hr. day XCtry and 2 hr. night XCtry, meeting the NM
requirements, with an instructor while working on the instrument
rating, would that carry-over?

At a minimum, you would have to meet the VFR requirement as well. Reading
the Part 61 FAQ, Q&A 93 says that an instrument training flight done under
simulated instrument conditions does NOT qualify for the 2 hour XC
requirements, even if the VFR conditions requirement is met (apparently
because, even though the actual conditions are VFR, the pilot is still
flying under IMC...the fact that it's simulated IMC is irrelevant).

In another question, the FAQ does clarify that you can do simulated
instrument conditions in a given flight, and still count that flight for the
2 hours XC. But only if there are 2 hours NOT spent under simulated
instrument conditions for that flight. For example, if you had a 2.5 hour
training flight, meeting the distance requirements, during which you used a
view limiting device for less than half an hour (perhaps you only flew the
approaches under simulated instrument conditions), and for which the rest of
the flight was done under VFR conditions, that would be fine.

Is the requirement that a logbook entry
exist for those elements, or that they were done while training for the
commercial rating?

You would certainly need a logbook entry for any aeronautical experience you
intend to use for the certificate. There is not, as far as I know, a
requirement that the training be done specifically for the Commercial Pilot
certificate. The training flight does, of course, need to include aspects
of piloting found in 61.127(b)(1), but there's nothing that says that
training has to happen after you have "officially" commenced on your
Commercial Pilot training.

My ultimate goal is to get the CFI ticket, and let other help support
my habit! ;-)

Then it's an investment. The real question would be, can you afford to NOT
get the Commercial Pilot certificate. Assuming you eventually make the cost
of the training back through your paid piloting duties, no amount for the
training would be too much, and once you've paid off the training,
everything else is gravy. Right?

Pete

three-eight-hotel wrote:

I know there are some new maneuvers, but those can be learned in the
172 and confirmed in the complex plane as part of the 10 hours.

I suspect that the decision on what aircraft to use for each part of the
exam is at the discretion of the individual examiner. I, too, have been
considering pursuing my commercial but my Bonanza has a newly rebuilt,
turbo-normalized engine in it. As much as I would like to learn and
demonstrate the maneuvers in the Bonanza, I have concerns about damaging
engine heat that might build up while practicing and flying them during the
exam.

A few instructors whom I asked about this did speculate that the examiner,
a certified A&P, would allow demonstrating the commercial maneuvers in a
C172, then demonstrating competency in the complex aircraft (gear, cowl
flaps, and adjustable prop in the Bo).

--
Peter

Steven Barnes wrote:

Other than going for my CFI, what good does a Commercial do, other than
guarantee my AME a yearly visit, instead of every 3 years? Can I finally
charge a friend of mine for doing aerial photography?

you can get a commercial certificate on a Class-III medical,
no need to upgrade; you only need the higher class of
medical certificate to *exercise* the privileges of the
commercial certificate (i.e., get paid :-) --- as for
charging friends for this or that, you want to read very
carefully the relevant regulations, e.g., 14 CFR 119, etc.
a commercial certificate does not turn you into a commercial
operator...

There is nothing wrong in getting a commercial certificate
for its own sake, i.e., there is some satisfaction to gain
from achieving higher standards; it does not necessarily
translate into anything practical :-)

--Sylvain

except that the criteria states that it is a VFR cross country.. night and
day.. any work under the hood enroute or an approach at either end negates
the use of that cross country for the Commercial rating.

BT

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
news
three-eight-hotel wrote:
If I flew a 2 hr. day XCtry and 2 hr. night XCtry, meeting the NM
requirements, with an instructor while working on the instrument
rating, would that carry-over? Is the requirement that a logbook entry
exist for those elements, or that they were done while training for the
commercial rating?


Any cross country you've done in the past for any reason is usable if it
meets the criteria. If you have a reasonably fresh instrument rating
you're pretty good to go. Learning the basics of the required maneuvers
in a complex single may be easier than in your C-172; you've got to burn
up 10 hours somehow anyway.

I'd say go for it. I did the same thing myself not so I could earn a
living so much as to get people to ride with me. People who are reluctant
to ride with a private pilot often don't show the same reticence with a
commercial one.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:rdhEe.18897$Eo.5130@fed1read04...
except that the criteria states that it is a VFR cross country.. night and
day.. any work under the hood enroute or an approach at either end negates
the use of that cross country for the Commercial rating.

Not true. As long as there are 2 hours of VFR flight, the rest of the time
can be under the hood. The presence of instrument training does not, in and
of itself, invalidate the flight from being used for that requirement.

Seems to me I obtained my Commercial Certificate in about 15 hours of
plane rental. Most of the time was spent doing those damn commercial
manuevers. Seems like everyone wants them done a little differently. It
was a pretty easy rating for me. LOTS easier than the IFR or the CFI.

Doug wrote:
Seems to me I obtained my Commercial Certificate in about 15 hours of
plane rental. Most of the time was spent doing those damn commercial
manuevers. Seems like everyone wants them done a little differently. It
was a pretty easy rating for me. LOTS easier than the IFR or the CFI.


It's the easiest ... although I'd put the multi engine in the same category, so
to speak. Certainly the private license is harder and the IFR rating the most
difficult. Frankly, I'd assume the private license to be tougher than the ATP,
if only because the learning curve is so steep. By the time you're taking an
ATP checkride you've been around for a while.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE