Advice On Flying Clubs

Hey All...

I'm considering applying to join an area flying club and I'd really like to
get some thoughts on the subject, Positives and Negatives...

So, what works and what doesn't in "Club Flying"?

TIA,

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

Jay,
take a look in "YOUR PILOT'S LICENSE" by JERRY A. EICHENBERGER pages 52 -
54. McGraw-Hill.
(Go to your nearest Barnes & Noble store, have a coffee and read those 3
pages....)
regards Karl-Heinz


"Jay Beckman" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:yP_Ge.205090$Qo.190101@fed1read01...
Hey All...

I'm considering applying to join an area flying club and I'd really like
to get some thoughts on the subject, Positives and Negatives...

So, what works and what doesn't in "Club Flying"?

TIA,

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

In a previous article, "Jay Beckman" said:

I'm considering applying to join an area flying club and I'd really like to
get some thoughts on the subject, Positives and Negatives...

There are a lot of different types of flying clubs.

The main difference is that some clubs make you buy a share of their
fleet, and the share price may appreciate in value over the course of your
membership, and then you sell it when you leave. Other clubs, such as
mine (http://www.rochesterflyingclub.com/) charge you an initiation fee
when you join, but don't give any of it back if you quit.

Another major difference is how they pay for upgrades. Some clubs will
levy the members if they want to buy a new plane or upgrade the panels or
whatever, and others (like mine) will do it entirely through debt and
lines of credit. Our club has in the last five years sold two Archers,
bought a newer Archer and a Dakota, put a Stormscope in the Dakota,
painted the Dakota, and put new engines in two of our planes, all without
hitting up our members for anything extra beyond their monthly dues.
We're planning a new engine in the Dakota next year, and possibly in the
Lance the year after that.

Before joining a club, you should ask about:
- What it costs to join?
- Whether that's a share or an initiation fee?
- Whether they levy the membership for upgrades? If so, how much are they
likely to levy?
- What's the ratio of members to planes? (We find that once you get over 15
members per plane, people start complaining about aircraft availability.)
- How do they schedule planes, and is the "scheduling book" visible to
all, and accessible through the Internet AND through telephone? (You
can't always count on getting to the Internet when you're weathered in
somewhere along the way.)
- How is the fleet maintained? Do the members do a lot of the
maintenance, or is it done by professionals? (Our club used to do a
lot, but years ago we decided to get everything done by professionals for
liability reasons. We don't even change our own oil now.)
- Whether the fleet is a good fit to your mission?
- What sort of checkouts and currency requirements they have for different
planes in the fleet?
- Do they allow all weekend or week long bookings in the high season? Is
there a surcharge if you don't fly a certain number of hours on a long
booking?
- Do they do social activities or flying activities as a club?
- Do club members get together to fly to Oshkosh in club aircraft?

You'll also need to look at the planes yourself to see if they're clean
and well maintained. Garbage in the planes or "barely legal" maintenance
is a good sign that the members don't have pride of ownership in their
planes, which I think is a bad thing. The worst thing that can happen to
a flying club is for most of the members to start treating it like a cheap
FBO. Once that happens, the people who do all the work in the club, the
officers and other volunteers, will start burning out and then nothing
will get done.

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
[Y]ou should write for the comprehension of the next programmer who
looks at your code, keep it clean and sensible, and *not* play
any obscure Jedi mind-tricks. -- Anthony de Boer

It all depends on the club, of course. But potential benefits a

1: No minimum rental fee for long trips - this makes an airplane
actually useful.

2: Better maintanance, since the club members think of the airplane as
their own.

3: Social aspects of flying with the same people, and getting spouses
together (and getting spouses to fly, and land, the plane themselves)

4: Ability to participate in decisions that affect the fleet.

5: Appreciation of your equity share (if the club operates that way)
makes it easier to consider upgrades and additional aircraft.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Paul Tomblin wrote:

all without
hitting up our members for anything extra beyond their monthly dues.

How does this work financially? For example, doesn't it mean that your
monthly fees (fixed or variable or both) are "overpriced" to pay for future
upgrades?

Consider a member that joins in 2000 and leaves in 2004. If, in 2005,
there's finally enough money for some planned upgrade, doesn't that mean
that the now-ex-member helped to fund an upgrade he or she will never use?

This is an issue in the club to which I belong. We try to fund upgrade by
increasing equity. That works as you described a sha One buys in and
cashes out at the end. The only loss is the opportunity cost of leaving
that equity with the club for the duration of membership.

When we bought a new plane, for example, equity was increased. We did this
over time, so in looks like a periodic payment. But a departing member
gets all his or her equity back.

Similarly, we don't use much of an initiation fee that's not paid back. The
only cost "lost" on joining is the cost of the checkride and such.

I'd be *very* interested in more discussion here regarding how other clubs
do this.

- Andrew

Jay Beckman wrote:

I'm considering applying to join an area flying club and I'd really like
to get some thoughts on the subject, Positives and Negatives...

Advantages over owning:

o Diversity of aircraft
o Spreading risk (ie. one aircraft down doesn't
mean you don't fly)
o Spreading cost risk (ie. one airplane having an expensive
year can be offset by other aircraft under certain
circumstances)[1]

Advantages over renting:

o Opportunity to participate/learn more about
the care and feeding of aircraft.
o Price
o No daily minimums

Disadvantages over owning:

o Scheduling, as opposed to just "getting up and
going flying" (not valid if in a partnership)

Disadvantages over renting:

o Having to deal with care and feeding of aircraft.
o No FBO to whom one can simple give the airplane and
say "solve the problem"

In my mind, a good club operates like a large partnership. But I'm biased
in that that's how my club operates (we're all share owners, all "care and
feeding" tasks are volunteer positions, etc).

- Andrew

[1] This is a tough issue. We try to keep all aircraft paying
for themselves so as to avoid retaining an undesirable plane.
But for identical aircraft, we do pool (since there's no reason
to assume one 172 is less desirable than another identical 172).

Pooling helps...and it's a good reason in my opinion for a larger
club: so as to have more pool w/o giving up diversity. That is,
I'd rather a club with two pairs of identical aircraft and twice
the membership than a smaller club with only one of each of two
types of airplane.

In a previous article, Andrew Gideon said:
Paul Tomblin wrote:
all without
hitting up our members for anything extra beyond their monthly dues.

How does this work financially? For example, doesn't it mean that your
monthly fees (fixed or variable or both) are "overpriced" to pay for future
upgrades?

No, it means that your monthly fees include an upgrade reserve.

Consider a member that joins in 2000 and leaves in 2004. If, in 2005,
there's finally enough money for some planned upgrade, doesn't that mean
that the now-ex-member helped to fund an upgrade he or she will never use?

That member joined a club that had newish aircraft in 2000, bought with
the upgrade funds contributed by other members. They got the benefit of
other members upgrade reserve, just as future members get the benefit of
theirs.

The club started with 20 guys and a Cessna 120. Fifty years later, we've
got 48 members and 5 planes, and all along the way the fleet has been
upgraded as necessary to keep up with the needs of the members.

When we bought a new plane, for example, equity was increased. We did this
over time, so in looks like a periodic payment. But a departing member
gets all his or her equity back.

Since our member only had to pay $795 to join, he doesn't have any equity
and doesn't get anything when he quits. The other local club at our field
does an equity thing, and it costs $32,000 to join. And when they
increased the fleet to 4 aircraft, every one of them got hit with an
additional assessment. When we, on the other hand, traded in two 6,000
hour Archers for a 2,000 hour Archer and a Dakota, we didn't even raise
our monthly dues.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of
tapes hurtling down the highway.
-- Andrew Tannenbaum possibly quoting Warren Jackson

In a previous article, Andrew Gideon said:
Jay Beckman wrote:
Advantages over renting:

o Opportunity to participate/learn more about
the care and feeding of aircraft.
o Price
o No daily minimums

* NO RENTERS INSURANCE NEEDED! The club insurance covers you, and the
insurance company won't subrogate against you. That alone can pay your
monthly dues.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"I didn't know it was impossible when I did it."

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message ...
In a previous article, Andrew Gideon said:
Paul Tomblin wrote:
all without
hitting up our members for anything extra beyond their monthly dues.

How does this work financially? For example, doesn't it mean that your
monthly fees (fixed or variable or both) are "overpriced" to pay for future
upgrades?

No, it means that your monthly fees include an upgrade reserve.

Consider a member that joins in 2000 and leaves in 2004. If, in 2005,
there's finally enough money for some planned upgrade, doesn't that mean
that the now-ex-member helped to fund an upgrade he or she will never use?

That member joined a club that had newish aircraft in 2000, bought with
the upgrade funds contributed by other members. They got the benefit of
other members upgrade reserve, just as future members get the benefit of
theirs.

The club started with 20 guys and a Cessna 120. Fifty years later, we've
got 48 members and 5 planes, and all along the way the fleet has been
upgraded as necessary to keep up with the needs of the members.

When we bought a new plane, for example, equity was increased. We did this
over time, so in looks like a periodic payment. But a departing member
gets all his or her equity back.

Since our member only had to pay $795 to join, he doesn't have any equity
and doesn't get anything when he quits. The other local club at our field
does an equity thing, and it costs $32,000 to join. And when they
increased the fleet to 4 aircraft, every one of them got hit with an
additional assessment. When we, on the other hand, traded in two 6,000
hour Archers for a 2,000 hour Archer and a Dakota, we didn't even raise
our monthly dues.


How much are the monthly dues?
--
Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

In a previous article, "John Clonts" said:
"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
additional assessment. When we, on the other hand, traded in two 6,000
hour Archers for a 2,000 hour Archer and a Dakota, we didn't even raise
our monthly dues.

How much are the monthly dues?

http://www.rochesterflyingclub.com/rates.shtml
$80 a month. Which is less than you'd pay for renters insurance,
according to AOPA.

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Revenge is an integral part of forgiving and forgetting.
-- The BOFH