FLAPS

I also concur that I have had more trouble with brakes - particularly
the ill-conceived heel brakes that are clearly the work of Satan -
and a CG hook during cross-wind aerotows than I ever had with flaps.
(I do love my stick-mounted hydraulic disk brake!)

My first glider was a flapped Jantar-1 and I have a bunch of time in an
ASW-20. Flaps are a little more complicated, but give you more landing
control and more performance for your money.

Unless you're a complete doofus, you should manage the transition to
flaps without any problems. Just read the manual, listen to your
instructor and practice.

Your big kahunas sound like a bunch of old women!

Mike

Discus 2 WA

Originally Posted by skysailor

The big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for a low time pilot and why?

To answer your questions: no, and I have no idea why they think so.

I bought my first glider (Mini-Nimbus) shortly before I took my checkride. I had far fewer hours than you. My very first flight in a flapped ship was after I passed my checkride and the insurance company allowed me to fly my own ship.

The flaps were a complete non-event. I was then and am still today much more concerned with remembering that I have retractable gear. The flaps help when you care to use them, but frankly, were never a bit of distraction from the "blue up/green down" aspects of flying.

Some folks here have spoken of getting in trouble with a positive flaps setting when too low on final. Trust me: if you are remotely paying attention, you will notice a distinct nose down attitude that tells you the flaps are set positive. Changing them to neutral will bring the nose up and also give you an instant but slight acceleration. Both of those are good if low on final.

If you are the sort who would be low on final and not think to adjust your flaps setting, perhaps flying is not the sport for you regardless what class plane you are flying. Furthermore, flaps allow you to always arrive a bit high, since you can shed altitude more quickly than some other ships.

Buy the best ship you can afford and learn to fly it well, whatever it is. And remember to have fun.

Steve

I agree with 95% of your statement. Having "signed off" quite a few low
time pilots for their first time fllight in flaps, and BTW CG hooks, I have
not had anyone have a big problem with flaps. Just remember that the "full
bore" landing flaps are not to be used till *after* the turn to final *and *
you have the field made no matter what.
However, I worry that some will misinterpret what you said about reducing
flaps if low on final. This must only be done very carefully or not at all,
as there is a loss of altitude and a sinking feeling. It must be done early
in the final approach phase or it won't do much good and will lose altitude.
The "spot in the windshield" must be established early. Since this "spot"
must allow for increased sink on short final, it should not be the very
beginning of the runway. Having "experimented" with this with a ASW27, the
loss is about 50 feet. I have not flown the like of a PIK or HP, but have
flown a ASW20B--I'd bet the HP would lose more. Just dont try this for the
first time at 100 ft height--try at 2000ft in your ship and see what
happens.

--
Hartley Falbaum CFIG USA


"Vic7" wrote in message
...

skysailor Wrote:
The big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first
glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for a
low time pilot and why?

To answer your questions: no, and I have no idea why they think so.

I bought my first glider (Mini-Nimbus) shortly before I took my
checkride. I had far fewer hours than you. My very first flight in a
flapped ship was after I passed my checkride and the insurance company
allowed me to fly my own ship.

The flaps were a complete non-event. I was then and am still today
much more concerned with remembering that I have retractable gear. The
flaps help when you care to use them, but frankly, were never a bit of
distraction from the "blue up/green down" aspects of flying.

Some folks here have spoken of getting in trouble with a positive flaps
setting when too low on final. Trust me: if you are remotely paying
attention, you will notice a distinct nose down attitude that tells you
the flaps are set positive. Changing them to neutral will bring the
nose up and also give you an instant but slight acceleration. Both of
those are good if low on final.

If you are the sort who would be low on final and not think to adjust
your flaps setting, perhaps flying is not the sport for you regardless
what class plane you are flying. Furthermore, flaps allow you to
always arrive a bit high, since you can shed altitude more quickly than
some other ships.

Buy the best ship you can afford and learn to fly it well, whatever it
is. And remember to have fun.

Steve


--
Vic7

I have not experienced any drop,
provided the approach is flown at proper "approach speed".

When the flap is retracted from any position even as high as
+90 deg. at a constant rate and the "same speed" is
maintained no drop is experienced. In fact the rate of decent
is reduced. Since one is flying at the proper speed, the sink
rate with zero flap is less by a factor of five or more.
This requires that the nose is raised at the same time as the
flap is retracted.
Only when the fence or thresholds is reach should the
glider be slowed below the approach speed.
Once experience has been gained a more flexible approaches
are possible.

Naturedly if you fly 1.3 time the stall speed for given flap setting
you will invite trouble. This would be about 40 kt. with +90 deg.
If you were to reduce the flap to zero at that speed you would stall
or if one still has flying speed the sink rate would be high.

For the first time flapped only glider pilot, I recommend the following.
If the wing loading is around seven lb the approach speed should
be about 55 Kt . Take a high tow, play with the flaps and maintain
proper speed of 55 kt at all flap settings. Enter the landing pattern.
You should have all the correct heights at all points along the way.
The only difference, with a flapped only glider fly it closer in on final
by about 50% for the same height. Crank in full flaps and point the
glider to the fence. Maintain 55 kt. The sense you will have is
standing in the cockpit but the fuselage only will point down about
30 deg.. Hold that nose down position till about 10-15 feet off the
ground. Round out positively and let the glider settle on it own,
You will not have the shortest landing but a save first experience.
( When I made my first flight I took the glider to an airport with a very
long grass run way, as my club at the time only had a 2000 ft strip.)
Regards
Udo


"HL Falbaum" wrote in message
...
I agree with 95% of your statement. Having "signed off" quite a few low
time pilots for their first time fllight in flaps, and BTW CG hooks, I have
not had anyone have a big problem with flaps. Just remember that the "full
bore" landing flaps are not to be used till *after* the turn to final *and
* you have the field made no matter what.
However, I worry that some will misinterpret what you said about reducing
flaps if low on final. This must only be done very carefully or not at
all, as there is a loss of altitude and a sinking feeling. It must be done
early in the final approach phase or it won't do much good and will lose
altitude. The "spot in the windshield" must be established early. Since
this "spot" must allow for increased sink on short final, it should not be
the very beginning of the runway. Having "experimented" with this with a
ASW27, the loss is about 50 feet. I have not flown the like of a PIK or
HP, but have flown a ASW20B--I'd bet the HP would lose more. Just dont try
this for the first time at 100 ft height--try at 2000ft in your ship and
see what happens.

--
Hartley Falbaum CFIG USA


"Vic7" wrote in message
...

skysailor Wrote:
The big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first
glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for a
low time pilot and why?

To answer your questions: no, and I have no idea why they think so.

I bought my first glider (Mini-Nimbus) shortly before I took my
checkride. I had far fewer hours than you. My very first flight in a
flapped ship was after I passed my checkride and the insurance company
allowed me to fly my own ship.

The flaps were a complete non-event. I was then and am still today
much more concerned with remembering that I have retractable gear. The
flaps help when you care to use them, but frankly, were never a bit of
distraction from the "blue up/green down" aspects of flying.

Some folks here have spoken of getting in trouble with a positive flaps
setting when too low on final. Trust me: if you are remotely paying
attention, you will notice a distinct nose down attitude that tells you
the flaps are set positive. Changing them to neutral will bring the
nose up and also give you an instant but slight acceleration. Both of
those are good if low on final.

If you are the sort who would be low on final and not think to adjust
your flaps setting, perhaps flying is not the sport for you regardless
what class plane you are flying. Furthermore, flaps allow you to
always arrive a bit high, since you can shed altitude more quickly than
some other ships.

Buy the best ship you can afford and learn to fly it well, whatever it
is. And remember to have fun.

Steve


--
Vic7

I second that. I have retracted from 55 deg flap to thermal position less
than 5 meters above the runway, and if memory serves me right, I didn't
crash :-)

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Udo Rumpf" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
I have not experienced any drop,
provided the approach is flown at proper "approach speed".

When the flap is retracted from any position even as high as
+90 deg. at a constant rate and the "same speed" is
maintained no drop is experienced. In fact the rate of decent
is reduced. Since one is flying at the proper speed, the sink
rate with zero flap is less by a factor of five or more.
This requires that the nose is raised at the same time as the
flap is retracted.
Only when the fence or thresholds is reach should the
glider be slowed below the approach speed.
Once experience has been gained a more flexible approaches
are possible.

Naturedly if you fly 1.3 time the stall speed for given flap setting
you will invite trouble. This would be about 40 kt. with +90 deg.
If you were to reduce the flap to zero at that speed you would stall
or if one still has flying speed the sink rate would be high.

For the first time flapped only glider pilot, I recommend the following.
If the wing loading is around seven lb the approach speed should
be about 55 Kt . Take a high tow, play with the flaps and maintain
proper speed of 55 kt at all flap settings. Enter the landing pattern.
You should have all the correct heights at all points along the way.
The only difference, with a flapped only glider fly it closer in on final
by about 50% for the same height. Crank in full flaps and point the
glider to the fence. Maintain 55 kt. The sense you will have is
standing in the cockpit but the fuselage only will point down about
30 deg.. Hold that nose down position till about 10-15 feet off the
ground. Round out positively and let the glider settle on it own,
You will not have the shortest landing but a save first experience.
( When I made my first flight I took the glider to an airport with a very
long grass run way, as my club at the time only had a 2000 ft strip.)
Regards
Udo


"HL Falbaum" wrote in message
...
I agree with 95% of your statement. Having "signed off" quite a few low
time pilots for their first time fllight in flaps, and BTW CG hooks, I
have not had anyone have a big problem with flaps. Just remember that the
"full bore" landing flaps are not to be used till *after* the turn to
final *and * you have the field made no matter what.
However, I worry that some will misinterpret what you said about reducing
flaps if low on final. This must only be done very carefully or not at
all, as there is a loss of altitude and a sinking feeling. It must be
done early in the final approach phase or it won't do much good and will
lose altitude. The "spot in the windshield" must be established early.
Since this "spot" must allow for increased sink on short final, it should
not be the very beginning of the runway. Having "experimented" with this
with a ASW27, the loss is about 50 feet. I have not flown the like of a
PIK or HP, but have flown a ASW20B--I'd bet the HP would lose more. Just
dont try this for the first time at 100 ft height--try at 2000ft in your
ship and see what happens.

--
Hartley Falbaum CFIG USA


"Vic7" wrote in message
...

skysailor Wrote:
The big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a
first
glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for
a
low time pilot and why?

To answer your questions: no, and I have no idea why they think so.

I bought my first glider (Mini-Nimbus) shortly before I took my
checkride. I had far fewer hours than you. My very first flight in a
flapped ship was after I passed my checkride and the insurance company
allowed me to fly my own ship.

The flaps were a complete non-event. I was then and am still today
much more concerned with remembering that I have retractable gear. The
flaps help when you care to use them, but frankly, were never a bit of
distraction from the "blue up/green down" aspects of flying.

Some folks here have spoken of getting in trouble with a positive flaps
setting when too low on final. Trust me: if you are remotely paying
attention, you will notice a distinct nose down attitude that tells you
the flaps are set positive. Changing them to neutral will bring the
nose up and also give you an instant but slight acceleration. Both of
those are good if low on final.

If you are the sort who would be low on final and not think to adjust
your flaps setting, perhaps flying is not the sport for you regardless
what class plane you are flying. Furthermore, flaps allow you to
always arrive a bit high, since you can shed altitude more quickly than
some other ships.

Buy the best ship you can afford and learn to fly it well, whatever it
is. And remember to have fun.

Steve


--
Vic7

It is interesting to see how this thread changed from a response to a
simple request for opinions about the advisability of flaps on a first ship
- to a discussion of "how to land with flaps" then "It's OK to retract
flaps on landing - because I did it" So let me please add a note of
caution to the new pilot readers: 1) Flight/ground instruction should be
done in person and by somebody who knows you and the specific glider you
are learning to fly. 2) Read and understand the POH for the glider you are
about to fly - it is more reliable than Internet postings. 3) Accept that
retracting the flaps on approach is a very dangerous maneuver for the new
pilot and the observation that some highly experienced pilots can do it
safely does not mean that you should try it.

Roy B. CFI

AMEN

Ron Gregg, CFI


In article , Roy Bourgeois
wrote:

It is interesting to see how this thread changed from a response to a
simple request for opinions about the advisability of flaps on a first ship
- to a discussion of "how to land with flaps" then "It's OK to retract
flaps on landing - because I did it" So let me please add a note of
caution to the new pilot readers: 1) Flight/ground instruction should be
done in person and by somebody who knows you and the specific glider you
are learning to fly. 2) Read and understand the POH for the glider you are
about to fly - it is more reliable than Internet postings. 3) Accept that
retracting the flaps on approach is a very dangerous maneuver for the new
pilot and the observation that some highly experienced pilots can do it
safely does not mean that you should try it.

Roy B. CFI

None of the CFI's I knew were of help.
It takes common sense, some forethought and a competent airman
to start, regardless of how many hours you have. I my case I
made my first flight in an all flapped glider after 14 hours in Gliders
and completed my 300 km O&T after 40hours.
As well as 3 outlanding in previous attempt all with this flapped glider.
Please do not make it sound as if flying a flapped glider the first time out
is dangerous. It is no more dangerous then going solo.
Also, in my comments I provide a way to reduce the need for flap use the
first time out.
Udo


"Ron Gregg" wrote in message
...

AMEN

Ron Gregg, CFI


In article , Roy Bourgeois
wrote:

It is interesting to see how this thread changed from a response to a
simple request for opinions about the advisability of flaps on a first
ship
- to a discussion of "how to land with flaps" then "It's OK to retract
flaps on landing - because I did it" So let me please add a note of
caution to the new pilot readers: 1) Flight/ground instruction should be
done in person and by somebody who knows you and the specific glider you
are learning to fly. 2) Read and understand the POH for the glider you
are
about to fly - it is more reliable than Internet postings. 3) Accept that
retracting the flaps on approach is a very dangerous maneuver for the new
pilot and the observation that some highly experienced pilots can do it
safely does not mean that you should try it.

Roy B. CFI

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:33:00 +0200, "Bert Willing"
wrote:

I second that. I have retracted from 55 deg flap to thermal position less
than 5 meters above the runway, and if memory serves me right, I didn't
crash :-)

Unlock the flap lever in your 20 at a height of about 2 meters (... if
necessary I can tell you how to do that...) and you'll get the
experience of a purely ballistic impact one second later.


I think in the end it's a question of many factors - situational
awareness (remember to pull up the nose while retracting the flaps,
remembering not to overshoot the desired setting), training, and
feeling (coordination of flap retraction, pulling on the stick and
controlling the speed).
If the pilot is alert and knows what he's doing, there is not going to
be any problem. If not, some gliders are going to punish the pilot
more than others.


Reading about Udo's story of first flying a flapped ship with 14
glider hours (most of my students have mor hours when they solo) on a
airport with a long runway because his home airport's runway is only
2.000 ft makes me think about how different the situation is in the
US/Canada compared to good ole' Europe...



Bye
Andreas

The original post referred to gliders that used flaps and divebrakes
(spoilers), not gliders that use only flaps for landing. Flap only gliders
that use flaps for landing require more accurate speed control during
approach/landings. I once saw an HP-10 (no spoilers) float the entire
length of the runway and end up in the trees at the far end, just because
the very experienced pilot did not pay attention to his approach speed. I
heard about another competent airman who flew a Schweizer 1-35 (again no
spoilers) for the first time and had trouble putting it down, so he removed
the flaps to prevent over running the runway; he landed hard, causing minor
damage to the fuselage. OTOH, on a flapped/spoilered ship, I've seen a very
experienced pilot mistake the flap control for the spoiler control and end
up in a tree just short of the runway.

"Udo Rumpf" wrote in message
...

None of the CFI's I knew were of help.
It takes common sense, some forethought and a competent airman
to start, regardless of how many hours you have. I my case I
made my first flight in an all flapped glider after 14 hours in Gliders
and completed my 300 km O&T after 40hours.
As well as 3 outlanding in previous attempt all with this flapped glider.
Please do not make it sound as if flying a flapped glider the first time
out
is dangerous. It is no more dangerous then going solo.
Also, in my comments I provide a way to reduce the need for flap use the
first time out.
Udo


"Ron Gregg" wrote in message
...

AMEN

Ron Gregg, CFI


In article , Roy Bourgeois
wrote:

It is interesting to see how this thread changed from a response to a
simple request for opinions about the advisability of flaps on a first
ship
- to a discussion of "how to land with flaps" then "It's OK to retract
flaps on landing - because I did it" So let me please add a note of
caution to the new pilot readers: 1) Flight/ground instruction should
be
done in person and by somebody who knows you and the specific glider
you
are learning to fly. 2) Read and understand the POH for the glider you
are
about to fly - it is more reliable than Internet postings. 3) Accept
that
retracting the flaps on approach is a very dangerous maneuver for the
new
pilot and the observation that some highly experienced pilots can do
it
safely does not mean that you should try it.

Roy B. CFI