SEL 'FIRM' landings

On 6 Jan 2006 06:56:53 -0800, "Tony" wrote:

During my initial private pilot night training I had plenty of "black
hole" landings where I just "knew" the runway had to be inches below
when it was actually several feet. After one particularly hard night
"drop in" I actually asked my instructor to inspect the landing gear
area the next morning with me; he laughed, but looked at the 172
anyway.

Since this ng dosen't seem to be limited strictly to winged aircraft
(I haven't read the FAQs or charter if there is one) I'll mention my
second hot air balloon landing. I wasn't able to arrest the descent in
time to avoid slamming into the ground in no-wind conditions; My
instructor and I were completely surrounded by the balloon skirt as
the envelope kept descending after the basket hit the ground. Worse,
we did it all over again twice seeing a little less skirt each time
before the thing just ran out of bounce.

Ricky

1) In any choice situation, take the crosswind from the right. Be
especially wary of left crosswinds. (I have not seen this published
anywhere)

Can you expand on that a bit, please? I'm not sure I see where you're going
with this.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Tony wrote:
'Fess up' time. We were having a hanger session a while ago, talking
about firm landings.

I bought my Maule back in '95. Took a CFI down to the factory, and we flew it
back; he made all the takeoffs and landings. Then he set about the process of
teaching me to land the aircraft.

I had a vision problem in that plane, which I later cured by putting a 2"
cushion in the pilot's seat, but I had no cushion back then. I came in for a
landing at 47N, leveled off, and let the speed degrade a bit, planning to let it
settle down to the runway. Sure, I was high, but I had plenty of runway ahead of
me. Kenny later estimated our altitude at about 25' AGL.

Well, I misjudged the airspeed and suddenly I realized that the controls were
getting a bit sloppy. I hit the throttle just as the bottom fell out. That's
probably all that kept the gear from going through the bottom of the plane.

We climbed back to pattern altitude and took a brief detour while Kenny made
sure the right gear was still there and I did the same on my side.

Maule builds tough airplanes, but mine always had a tendency to turn left when
taxiing. I'm not sure it did that right after we left the factory with it.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

Jay Honeck wrote:
1) In any choice situation, take the crosswind from the right. Be
especially wary of left crosswinds. (I have not seen this published
anywhere)

Can you expand on that a bit, please? I'm not sure I see where you're going
with this.

When the nose is high in the flare, if you have to add power for any reason,
P-factor will tend to add to your problems with a wind from the left and help
you with a wind from the right. In addition, I've always found that slipping
into a wind from the right gives me better visibility in the high-wing aircraft
I've owned.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

Tony

If it goes 'Beep'-'Squeak' in a Mooney, you know you made a excellent
landing )

Big John
Ex Mark 20C
```````````````````````````````````

On 8 Jan 2006 21:40:31 -0800, "Tony" wrote:

It doesn't take long to figure out you need really long runways if you
carry too much speed into the flare with an M20J! Too any of us Mooney
jocks still don't hear the stall warning horn before touchdown: if you
really want to have fun with a 172 driver in the right seat really hold
if off with a little power until you touch down with the tail skid
first. They NEVER will have been that nose high in the flare.


I'll bet you find this true as well: watching a Skyhawk make an
approach to a fairly short runway and telling yourself he'll NEVER get
it down in time from there. But he does, without even using a slip.
Know thy airplane, huh?

Jay Honeck wrote:
1) In any choice situation, take the crosswind from the right. Be
especially wary of left crosswinds. (I have not seen this published
anywhere)

Can you expand on that a bit, please?

I should have clarified the sentence & said for takeoffs only. It
already takes right rudder in a zero wind to compensate for the
rotating slipstream etc, but it takes still more right rudder for any
left crosswind. The result for me (C172M) is that a 10 knot left
crosswind is like a 20 knot right crosswind in terms of rudder-needs
and pucker factor.

Is this true in the Cherokees? It may not be so much so because of the
fixed nosewheel steer connection, although when the nose is raised it
has to be true.

NRP

nrp wrote:
I should have clarified the sentence & said for takeoffs only. It
already takes right rudder in a zero wind to compensate for the
rotating slipstream etc, but it takes still more right rudder for any
left crosswind. The result for me (C172M) is that a 10 knot left
crosswind is like a 20 knot right crosswind in terms of rudder-needs
and pucker factor.

I'm still not sure I follow you. If your objective immediately after
takeoff was to have the fuselage aligned with the runway, as it is
immediately before landing, I'd agree that more rudder would be
required against the rudder weathervaning. Takeoff is not the same as
landing in this respect though. Upon liftoff you should make a
_coordinated_ turn into the wind in order to add the appropriate amount
of crab angle required to stay above the runway (left aileron and left
rudder into a left crosswind). Asymmetric rudder usage shouldn't
really apply, I think, aside from the usual net left-turning
tendencies.

If you're not flying in a coordinated manner on takeoff you're throwing
away performance and operating at less than optimal efficiency - at a
time when you can use all the performance you can get.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding. I'm still licensed to learn.

-R

If you're not flying in a coordinated manner on takeoff you're throwing
away performance and operating at less than optimal efficiency - at a
time when you can use all the performance you can get.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding. I'm still licensed to learn.

Makes sense to me!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Asymmetric rudder usage shouldn't
really apply, I think, aside from the usual net left-turning
tendencies.

This was intended for takeoffs only and has nothing to do with
post-lift-off handling. It is the amount of rudder required to
maintain directional control during the takeoff acceleration.

I use full aileron at the start & come off it during the roll. I find
that it requires rudder inputs to counteract both torque (actually it
is mostly spinning slipstream) effects and weathervaning due to the
crosswind. Sometimes the inputs have to add (such as a left crosswind)
, and sometimes they cancel (right crosswind).

I try to leave the runway in a near minimum airspeed and tire scrub
condition. Climbout etc is coordinated (I hope!)

As a Mooney owner and CFI I do a fair amount of Mooney transition
training. From talking to Mooney shops that fix the damage afterwards,
I've discovered that you get 2 bounces for free in the Mooney. The
third bounce costs about $20,000. I tell my students not to try to save
a Mooney bounce, just add full power and go around. Also, the attitude
the plane sit at while on the ground will result in a bounce (I guess
teh nose hangs lower than the mains). The visual picture you want to
see on landing should have the nose higher than you see while at rest
on the ground. Weight also makes a pretty good difference. With two
guys on board and less than 1/2 fuel you should reduce your normal
approach speed by 5 knots vs. near gross. The nice thing about Mooneys
is that there is no cross wind in the flare. The wings sit so low that
they really don't feel cross wind. Its the bushes effect, below waist
level the bushes disrupt the wind. I've landed in as much as 25 knots
cross wind in my Mooney. Once in the flare you can pretty much take the
cross wind correction out. Its very different than a C172.

-Robert, CFI