I think I know why so many Cirrus' crash

On 15 Jan 2006 06:16:22 -0800, "darthpup"
wrote:

Well streamlined small aircraft can be a trick to land. The Cessna
177B is one example and the Cirrus is another. Bring them down to

The 177 is streamlines?

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

within two feet of the runway surface, hold it level and apply brakes
when it hits the surface. How hard can it be?

There are a few things that are dumber than flying a non standard
pattern at an uncontrolled airport.

Would you characterize straight-in instrument approach in VMC as a
standard pattern?

This kind of nonsense isn't restricted to uncontrolled airspace. Here's an
example of typical pattern confusion at a Class D tower-"controlled"
airport.

We're departing on Rwy 14 today at Janesville, WI (KJVL). The tower
controller instructs us to make a right-hand departure onto our on-course
heading of 240.

Meanwhile, he's working a guy on an ILS approach to Rwy 04. The controller
warns this guy of our departure (we're coming right at him, apparently) --
and then tells us his position by reference to an intersection that is
apparently the outer marker for the ILS approach.

This intersection name, of course, means *nothing* to us, as VFR pilots, but
I simply responded in the affirmative and continued to climb as rapidly as
possible away from where I guessed this guy was.

I *should* have called the nitwit controller on the carpet, and asked for a
REAL position report, but the pattern was empty (aside from this guy and
me), and I figured I should be able to see the guy. (And, of course, being
non-radar Class D, the poor "controller" probably had no idea where the guy
was, either.)

This kind of stupidity happens every day at Class D, non-radar fields, and
it's downright scary. I'll take an uncontrolled field over this kind of
airspace any day of the week.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

He asked if I was cutting in front of him and I stated "Looks like
it."


You are lower, in the pattern and turning final following procedure.

He wasn't cutting in front of him. That implies cutting him off.
Simply announcing you are on x mile final doesn't shut down final and
make everybody follow you.

"Ron Lee" wrote in message ...
Coming back from KCOS to 00V today several aircraft were in the
pattern for runway 33 and some people wanted runway 15 since the winds
were at the changeover point. With one or two at the runup area for
runway 15 I just went east until the fiasco was sorted out (I made
several position reports since people were all over).

Once that happened I announced my intentions (enter left downwind for
15) about 7-8 miles out and not long after that a Cirrus announced he
was 10 miles out. When I was on left downwind the Cirrus pilot
broadcast that he was on about 4 mile base for 15. I "assumed" he
meant downwind. Then when I was about to turn base he called out four
mile FINAL for 15. I saw a plane in that area and turned base
(calling it out by radio of course)

He asked if I was cutting in front of him and I stated "Looks like
it."

Soon thereafter I decided that I was too fast so went around then when
on downwind again stated that his (Cirrus "pilot") pattern entry was
bad. His response was "I called it out." I told him that it was not
good when other planes are using a standard pattern. Had he been the
only one around I would not have cared.

Thus my assessment is that Cirrus pilots have too much money and
inadequate pilot skills/common sense. Other fatal crashes just add to
this perception.

It's common to see a variety of ways to approach and land on a runway-- ways that I wouldn't have chosen,
and/or ways that you wouldn't have chosen.

It's also common for less experienced pilots (e.g. those who can't salvage a "too-fast" landing on a 6000 foot
runway) to condemn things that they don't approve of, even though they are not illegal, unsafe, nor uncommon.

IMHO

--
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

"John Doe" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Ron Lee" wrote in message
...
"John Doe" wrote:

Before you rip on too many Cirrus owners, did he have to go around for
poor
airspeed control?

Maybe not, but his poor/unsafe pattern entry did distract me from
proper airspeed management. Thus he was the one creating unsafe
conditions. Although I could have landed long, I decided it made
more sense to go around. No shame in that. Especially with an poor
pilot in a Cirrus behind me.


I would love to hear what your insurance company would say about that if
you crash your plane after landing long.

They would say here is a check to get the aircraft fixed. Why would thay
say anything else?

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:caEyf.708514$_o.92357@attbi_s71...
There are a few things that are dumber than flying a non standard
pattern at an uncontrolled airport.

Would you characterize straight-in instrument approach in VMC as a
standard pattern?

This kind of nonsense isn't restricted to uncontrolled airspace. Here's an
example of typical pattern confusion at a Class D tower-"controlled"
airport.

We're departing on Rwy 14 today at Janesville, WI (KJVL). The tower
controller instructs us to make a right-hand departure onto our on-course
heading of 240.

Meanwhile, he's working a guy on an ILS approach to Rwy 04. The
controller warns this guy of our departure (we're coming right at him,
apparently) -- and then tells us his position by reference to an
intersection that is apparently the outer marker for the ILS approach.

This intersection name, of course, means *nothing* to us, as VFR pilots,
but I simply responded in the affirmative and continued to climb as
rapidly as possible away from where I guessed this guy was.

I *should* have called the nitwit controller on the carpet, and asked for
a REAL position report, but the pattern was empty (aside from this guy and
me), and I figured I should be able to see the guy. (And, of course,
being non-radar Class D, the poor "controller" probably had no idea where
the guy was, either.)

This kind of stupidity happens every day at Class D, non-radar fields, and
it's downright scary. I'll take an uncontrolled field over this kind of
airspace any day of the week.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Janesville is an exception, a bad one. Many of us in the local area will no
longer land there.

Janesville is an exception, a bad one. Many of us in the local area will
no longer land there.

Sadly, I must disagree. I've run into this kind of stuff at many Class D,
non-radar-controlled airports, all across the U.S. It's just the nature of
the beast.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Ron Lee wrote:

He asked if I was cutting in front of him and I stated "Looks like
it."


Bad move. You just broke the right of way rules. It does not matter
whether you think his long final was reasonable. You cut in front of a
landing aircraft. If there had been an accident, chances are good that
you are the one who would have been found at fault.

Soon thereafter I decided that I was too fast so went around then when
on downwind again stated that his (Cirrus "pilot") pattern entry was
bad.

Wrong again. There is nothing prohibiting straight-in landings. Many
instrument approaches require them, and one of the pilots may be
wearing a hood. He may also have specific missed approach instructions
from ATC which might even be different from anything published; ATC
seems to like to tell aircraft to turn 90 degrees right or left
directly over the runway and cut straight across what you seem to think
is the 'normal' pattern. You are wrong to assume that all aircraft fly
by the same rules you do. They do not. Different aircraft fly different
patterns. They enter the pattern depending on the flight rules they are
operating under. Towers may ask aircraft to fly patterns on both sides
of the runway. Transiting aircraft may be constrained by ATC to flying
just above the pattern. High performance aicraft may fly a higher and
wider pattern than others. Helicopters may fly an opposite pattern or
even no pattern at all. Ultralights may fly inside and lower than other
aircraft. You might think that lighter than air aircraft would be easy
to see, but they are not always coming from a direction that you would
expect. Whenever you are in the vicinity of an airport, you should
assume that aircraft can come from any direction at any time.

His response was "I called it out." I told him that it was not
good when other planes are using a standard pattern. Had he been the
only one around I would not have cared.


And wrong yet again. The radios are not to be used for arguments. By
your own admission there were other aircraft in the pattern. You tied
up the radios in order to argue with another pilot, endangering both
yourself and others. Even if you had been right, which you were not,
the place to settle it is on the ground.

Thus my assessment is that Cirrus pilots have too much money and
inadequate pilot skills/common sense. Other fatal crashes just add to
this perception.


Guess what my perception is of you? If you had been my student, you
would have been chewed up one side and clawed down the other -- but my
students know better than to act like this in the first place.

I would not care for your attitude even if you had been right. A little
more humility, friendliness, and cooperation is in order. You make
mistakes, too. All pilots do.

Ron Lee

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 20:42:30 -0700, Newps wrote:





He asked if I was cutting in front of him and I stated "Looks like
it."


You are lower, in the pattern and turning final following procedure.

He wasn't cutting in front of him. That implies cutting him off.
Simply announcing you are on x mile final doesn't shut down final and
make everybody follow you.

Which is what I was getting at:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Ron Lee" wrote in message news:
Maybe not, but his poor/unsafe pattern entry did distract me from
proper airspeed management.

If that's all it takes, maybe you are more of a danger to yourself and
others than you think.

I was just fast enough that a normal landing was not possible. That
is hardly a safety issue. I was there.

You were distracted by a common (ask around) occurrance. Do you call a
missed approach when your pax farts?


Thus he was the one creating unsafe
conditions.

There are myriad regular distractions at least this distracting that
happen
regularly. You said that your stellar judgement keeps you out of
situations
where superior skill is necessary.

Never said that. Good try.

Yes, you did:

"I make up for lesser skills than others with superior judgement!"


Perhaps you should avoid flying anywhere but near remote deserted
airports.

Not an option and not needed.

If you can't control your airspeed in the patten when some mundane (and it
was) distraction occurs then it's likey needed. I'll gladly concede defeat
on this if any experienced pilot here thinks that you were sorely
challenged.


Although I could have landed long, I decided it made
more sense to go around. No shame in that. Especially with an poor
pilot in a Cirrus behind me.

Pot, kettle, etc.

Your opinion. Do you fly?

Yes.

Is John Doe your name or are you afraid to use your real name like I
do?

Godlike. Your courage is an example to us all.

An anonymous poster. I am impressed.

Hey stoopid, I'm not anonymous. I've posted from the same ISP for a decade.
That I just know that you're a pompous ass and you don't know my phone
number is of no interest to the world at large. Really want it? Google is
your friend.

moo