ASK 21 spin ballast installation

Hello all,

We have just ordered a spin ballast kit (Tn 4a) for our ASK 21 from
Schleicher. Can anyone relate their installation experience before we,
pardon the pun, auger in? Specifically about the drilling the 12mm hole and
the fiberglass cloth lamination. For those curious, I shall convey back our
own dealing once the exercise complete.

Cheers

Marc Arsenault
Aéroclub des Cantons de l'Est

Hello all,

For those at all interested, we installed the spin kit yesterday. The case
is that in Canada the nearest AME's specialising in glider work are 10 to
hours drive from Montreal. So we had to work with our "standard" AME. He
works on our tow plane. That is why I sent out our "help!" post a couple
days ago.

The installation is really as one indicated: a no brainer ie easy. The
important issue is to be assured of locating the 12 mm holes precisely. A
small challenge in geometry but achiavable. As indicated by Patrick, one has
to be double carefull in drilling such a "big" hole not to take out the
surface with a standard metal bit. A standard issue for those of you
familiar with this kind of operation, I am certain. The rest is really fun
work dealing with epoxy and fiberglass.

Our AME has just to clear the paperwork with Schleicher and our club will be
equiped with a spinable ASK-21. We believe this will be quite a safety asset
for us.

Cheers

Marc Arsenault

PS Would Patrick kindly send me another email with a valid address of some
sort, I need to transmit a personal note.

Marc

A PW-6, competitor to the ASK 21, needs no ballast weights -- climbs
better too.

For those at all interested, we installed the spin kit yesterday. The case
is that in Canada the nearest AME's specialising in glider work are 10 to
hours drive from Montreal. So we had to work with our "standard" AME. He
works on our tow plane. That is why I sent out our "help!" post a couple
days ago.

The installation is really as one indicated: a no brainer ie easy. The
important issue is to be assured of locating the 12 mm holes precisely. A
small challenge in geometry but achiavable. As indicated by Patrick, one has
to be double carefull in drilling such a "big" hole not to take out the
surface with a standard metal bit. A standard issue for those of you
familiar with this kind of operation, I am certain. The rest is really fun
work dealing with epoxy and fiberglass.

Our AME has just to clear the paperwork with Schleicher and our club will be
equiped with a spinable ASK-21. We believe this will be quite a safety asset
for us.

Cheers

Marc Arsenault

PS Would Patrick kindly send me another email with a valid address of some
sort, I need to transmit a personal note.




--
Charles Yeates

Swidnik PW-6U & PW-5
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/yeatesc/world.html

Charles,

Thank you for your reply. It was completely off topic.

Regards

Marc Arsenault

Teaching students to fly in so called "unspinable" gliders has to be one
of the the most reckless and dangerous things done... How do you expect
someone to learn how to fly safely when they are not taught to do so
from the beginning. If students are exposed to the danger from day one,
made aware of it, and taught how to recognize it they will inherently
become safer pilots, and will not be surprised when they get into a
glider that does spin. The PW-6, and for that fact ANY training glider
that does spin do definitely have an advantage over the ASK-21. If a
student doesn't have to worry about inadvertently putting the glider
into a spin "because the tail ballast is out" they won't pay attention
to how well they are flying, and that is definitely dangerous.



wrote:
Charles, are you saying that the PW-6 has an advantage over the ASK-21
because it actually CAN spin WITHOUT the spin weights? Rrrright....
what an advantage.

If that is actually true than I would not teach flying lessons in the
PW-6 and neither give students the permission for their first solo
flight...

Otherwise, as Marc said, completely off-topic. Or was this just a
misplaced reply for the "most ugliest gliders in the world"-thread? :-)

NoSpam wrote:
Teaching students to fly in so called "unspinable" gliders has to be one
of the the most reckless and dangerous things done... How do you expect
someone to learn how to fly safely when they are not taught to do so
from the beginning. If students are exposed to the danger from day one,
made aware of it, and taught how to recognize it they will inherently
become safer pilots, and will not be surprised when they get into a
glider that does spin. The PW-6, and for that fact ANY training glider
that does spin do definitely have an advantage over the ASK-21. If a
student doesn't have to worry about inadvertently putting the glider
into a spin "because the tail ballast is out" they won't pay attention
to how well they are flying, and that is definitely dangerous.

The ASK 21 is widely used around the world (750!), so it seems evidence
for this belief should be available. Do you know of any statistics that
suggest students trained in the ASK 21 are more likely to have
spin-related accidents while flying other gliders?

I'm guessing they have fewer spin-related accidents during training, so
one would have to balance any extra risk after training against the
reduced risk during training.
--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

I'm a new PPG in the USA, and although I wasn't taught in an
"unspinnable" glider, I was taught "incipient spins" in a SGS-233. The
2-33 will spin, of course, but we never did that (probably because of
its age, but mainly because of Schweizer's letter stating not to spin
it). It was thoroughly drummed into me how to initiate spin recovery
when the nose was dropping and a wing was low.

How well did this training work? Well, a few weeks after I got my PPG I
took an introduction to aerobatics in a Blanik L13AC. First up were
spins - and I found my incipient spin training worked practically
automatically for recovering. Based on this experience, I would
categorically state that if I had ever found myself in a spin before
the aerobatics course, I would definitely have gotten out of it
(assuming I had the height, of course).

I don't really see how my situation would have changed if I was taught
in the ASK-21. There has never been any time during my flying career
that I haven't been paying attention to my flying. The danger of
stalling and/or spinning was always made abundantly clear to me, and
the training I received resulted in me having automatic reflexes for
countering either situation. The ASK-21 is "unspinnable"? Wouldn't
matter....

-John

The ASK 21 is widely used around the world (750!),
so it seems
evidence
for this belief should be available. Do you know of
any statistics that
suggest students trained in the ASK 21 are more likely
to have
spin-related accidents while flying other gliders?

I'm guessing they have fewer spin-related accidents
during training, so
one would have to balance any extra risk after training
against the
reduced risk during training.
--
Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download 'A Guide to Self-launching
Sailplane
Operation'

And the beat goes on...and on. Should we train for
situations that are not
required by the FARs. Seems to me that a FBO would
keep their trainer
around for solo rental and be able to spin it for training.
Ergo spin
weights. The best of both worlds.
Chuck

At risk of re-starting the age old argument about spin
training, I'll bite.

I trained in a combination of Grob 103's and K-13's
(both of which spin, although both produce variable
results), my first solo's were in a Grob 103, fortunately
I was extremely aware of spinning and exactly what
these gliders would do if provoked and hence was extremely
careful about treating it gently. If I wasn't careful
I wouldn't have been sent solo (I hope).

Fast forward several years, Husbands Bosworth, Half
Cat course (roughly UK equivalent of CFIG). It's the
last day, time for 'blogs' check rides. The scenario,
the course instructor (who shall remain nameless except
for he's on the BGA safety committee) in from is playing
a just post Silver pilot, annual check, we tow off
in a K21, up to height, and true to form he starts
acting up, mal co-ordinating turns almost stalling/spinning.
My response, taking example from what my instructors
in the past had done, was to let him fly sloppily,
occasionally chastising him, even though the only reason
we weren't spinning was the K21's handling.

Naturally on the ground I received a good 15 minute
'talking to' (it was too polite and calm for an ear-bashing)
on how if he'd done that in anything else (especially
the Puchaz's we'd been flying previously), he'd have
spun us several times. Needless to say I learned from
that (along with subsequent instructing).

It is all too easy to fall into the trap of allowing
sloppy flying in a K21 because it's 'nice' and 'safe'.
If he'd been a solo pilot in a Disucs, he'd have spun
himself and if it had been on final turn....

I'll be blunt here, and for that I make no apologies,
if you are not capable of running a safe and informative
basic lesson in a spinnable trainer, you do not have
the skills to be an instructor, and if you would not
trust your pupil to be safe in that same trainer on
their first solo, you have not done your job as an
instructor.

Remember - If you, as a (presumably) experienced instructor,
are getting uncomfortable with something they are doing
you should be taking over. Your tolerances are much
bigger than theirs should be (for basic training at
least), so training them to keep within their limits
involves taking control before you get to a do-or-die
situation.

*Flame retardand suit on*

Cheers

Jamie Denton


p.s. Before anyone points it out, of course you need
to teach advanced, close to the limit, stuff at some
point, but a first solo pilot doesn't need to be a
practised hedge hopper, they need to be able to stay
in safe easy limits (like not going out of range of
the field or not postponing starting circuit below
800ft for example).
At 12:54 28 February 2006,
wrote:
Charles, are you saying that the PW-6 has an advantage
over the ASK-21
because it actually CAN spin WITHOUT the spin weights?
Rrrright....
what an advantage.

If that is actually true than I would not teach flying
lessons in the
PW-6 and neither give students the permission for their
first solo
flight...

Otherwise, as Marc said, completely off-topic. Or was
this just a
misplaced reply for the 'most ugliest gliders in the
world'-thread? :-)

All pilots need to be taught spin recognition, and recovery. Preferably
in an aircraft that spins really well, like an L-13/23 for example. I
really don't like the idea of adding the spin ballast to the K-21 to teach
spins. Just use something else.

I own an ASK-21, and love it dearly. It is an outstanding aircraft. When
my children get old enough to learn to fly it, I will be quite comfortable
letting them. I'll teach them spin awareness in something else.



Mark Lenox
CFIG


"John Doe" wrote in message
...
At risk of re-starting the age old argument about spin
training, I'll bite.

I trained in a combination of Grob 103's and K-13's
(both of which spin, although both produce variable
results), my first solo's were in a Grob 103, fortunately
I was extremely aware of spinning and exactly what
these gliders would do if provoked and hence was extremely
careful about treating it gently. If I wasn't careful
I wouldn't have been sent solo (I hope).

Fast forward several years, Husbands Bosworth, Half
Cat course (roughly UK equivalent of CFIG). It's the
last day, time for 'blogs' check rides. The scenario,
the course instructor (who shall remain nameless except
for he's on the BGA safety committee) in from is playing
a just post Silver pilot, annual check, we tow off
in a K21, up to height, and true to form he starts
acting up, mal co-ordinating turns almost stalling/spinning.
My response, taking example from what my instructors
in the past had done, was to let him fly sloppily,
occasionally chastising him, even though the only reason
we weren't spinning was the K21's handling.

Naturally on the ground I received a good 15 minute
'talking to' (it was too polite and calm for an ear-bashing)
on how if he'd done that in anything else (especially
the Puchaz's we'd been flying previously), he'd have
spun us several times. Needless to say I learned from
that (along with subsequent instructing).

It is all too easy to fall into the trap of allowing
sloppy flying in a K21 because it's 'nice' and 'safe'.
If he'd been a solo pilot in a Disucs, he'd have spun
himself and if it had been on final turn....

I'll be blunt here, and for that I make no apologies,
if you are not capable of running a safe and informative
basic lesson in a spinnable trainer, you do not have
the skills to be an instructor, and if you would not
trust your pupil to be safe in that same trainer on
their first solo, you have not done your job as an
instructor.

Remember - If you, as a (presumably) experienced instructor,
are getting uncomfortable with something they are doing
you should be taking over. Your tolerances are much
bigger than theirs should be (for basic training at
least), so training them to keep within their limits
involves taking control before you get to a do-or-die
situation.

*Flame retardand suit on*

Cheers

Jamie Denton


p.s. Before anyone points it out, of course you need
to teach advanced, close to the limit, stuff at some
point, but a first solo pilot doesn't need to be a
practised hedge hopper, they need to be able to stay
in safe easy limits (like not going out of range of
the field or not postponing starting circuit below
800ft for example).
At 12:54 28 February 2006,
wrote:
Charles, are you saying that the PW-6 has an advantage
over the ASK-21
because it actually CAN spin WITHOUT the spin weights?
Rrrright....
what an advantage.

If that is actually true than I would not teach flying
lessons in the
PW-6 and neither give students the permission for their
first solo
flight...

Otherwise, as Marc said, completely off-topic. Or was
this just a
misplaced reply for the 'most ugliest gliders in the
world'-thread? :-)