Accidents - correlation and causation?

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 19:32:57 -0500, "Kyle Boatright"
wrote in
::


You're absolutely right about getting the younger crowd to participate in
Aviation.
[...]
In the end, the 22 year old who is interested in flying makes a visit to
the FBO, "does the math", and realizes that a PPSEL is out of financial
reach. S/he never comes back.


That's because wealth is usually acquired later in life.

Today the ultralight and powered parachute equipment provides the
aviation minded youth the means of flight without benefit of
examination nor unrealistic cost. Later, when s/he can better afford
the expense, the option is always open for flight instruction and FAA
certificate.

snip

My experience is that the ultralight crowd (no experience with the powered
'chute crowd) is that it looks a whole lot like the rest of the GA crowd.
Average age of 50 or more, white, and male. From my vantage point, it
appears that one type person who flys U/L's (or illegal U/L's) is someone
who wants to continue flying but can't afford (or doesn't want to pay for)
an aircraft that burns 8 gph of $4/gallon fuel. The other group I see
flying UL's and Sport Pilot aircraft are guys who are on the back side of
the health curve and either know or fear that they wouldn't pass an aviation
physical.

I simply don't see young people (30) at the airport, unless they are young
CFI's or guys making $8/hr driving the fuel truck.

KB

Kyle Boatright wrote:

I simply don't see young people (30) at the airport, unless they are
young CFI's or guys making $8/hr driving the fuel truck.

well, the money issue has already been discussed, but there is
another issue that might drive said young crowd away from GA, even
the wealthy kids, and that I don't think you can really fix: GA is
not for the 'instant gratification' crowd; the learning process is
long and takes a certain amount of dedication that today's youger
ones are not ready to undertake, even those who could easily
afford it (I live in the Silicon Valley, there are plenty of
rich 20 something -- you see them sometimes poping up at the local
airport, ask a few questions, may be take a ride, but rarely coming
back); there are so many other avenues (sport cars/bikes,
'extreme' sports, the kind you see on mtv, etc.) that makes
it possible for them to get instant gratification and show off with
a limited amount of personal investment/learning (as compared to what's
required for GA), that it is difficult for GA to compete...

--Sylvain

"Sylvain" wrote in message
t...
Kyle Boatright wrote:

I simply don't see young people (30) at the airport, unless they are
young CFI's or guys making $8/hr driving the fuel truck.

well, the money issue has already been discussed, but there is
another issue that might drive said young crowd away from GA, even
the wealthy kids, and that I don't think you can really fix: GA is
not for the 'instant gratification' crowd; the learning process is
long and takes a certain amount of dedication that today's youger
ones are not ready to undertake, even those who could easily
afford it (I live in the Silicon Valley, there are plenty of
rich 20 something -- you see them sometimes poping up at the local
airport, ask a few questions, may be take a ride, but rarely coming
back); there are so many other avenues (sport cars/bikes,
'extreme' sports, the kind you see on mtv, etc.) that makes
it possible for them to get instant gratification and show off with
a limited amount of personal investment/learning (as compared to what's
required for GA), that it is difficult for GA to compete...

--Sylvain

Instant gratification may be part of it, but from Lindy's flight until the
end of the Apollo program, I'd say flying was seen as a true adventure with
some glamour thrown in. I believe that brought in a lot of paying
customers. In today's world, the primary attention flying gets in the media
is when someone crashes or in telling the tale of how horrible commercial
air travel has become. The glamour factor is zero.

KB

"Montblack" wrote

We got our 15 to 25 inches last week - Mon and Thur. Our backyard total
was
17 inches.

Right now it's 25 degrees ...(F) ...NOT ...(C)!!!

I think the (high) sun is winning and the snow is actually melting
...slowly.

This has been the lightest winter I have seen in the 19 years I have been in
NC. We had a couple days in Dec that had some ice/snow, and a couple weeks
of relatively cold weather, then we got a trace of snow yesterday. The rest
has been mild, very mild, but windy.

We will surely have a lot of bugs, this summer, me thinks.
--
Jim in NC

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...

"Sylvain" wrote in message
t...
Kyle Boatright wrote:

I simply don't see young people (30) at the airport, unless they are
young CFI's or guys making $8/hr driving the fuel truck.

well, the money issue has already been discussed, but there is
another issue that might drive said young crowd away from GA, even
the wealthy kids, and that I don't think you can really fix: GA is
not for the 'instant gratification' crowd; the learning process is
long and takes a certain amount of dedication that today's youger
ones are not ready to undertake, even those who could easily
afford it (I live in the Silicon Valley, there are plenty of
rich 20 something -- you see them sometimes poping up at the local
airport, ask a few questions, may be take a ride, but rarely coming
back); there are so many other avenues (sport cars/bikes,
'extreme' sports, the kind you see on mtv, etc.) that makes
it possible for them to get instant gratification and show off with
a limited amount of personal investment/learning (as compared to what's
required for GA), that it is difficult for GA to compete...

--Sylvain

Instant gratification may be part of it, but from Lindy's flight until the
end of the Apollo program, I'd say flying was seen as a true adventure
with some glamour thrown in. I believe that brought in a lot of paying
customers. In today's world, the primary attention flying gets in the
media is when someone crashes or in telling the tale of how horrible
commercial air travel has become. The glamour factor is zero.

KB

It is also pretty boring without much in the way of destinations other than
a bad hamburger. Most airports are about as exciting as a morgue at 2:00
am. If there is no social activity it is pretty difficult to get new blood
excited.

In article ,
"Dave Stadt" wrote:

It is also pretty boring without much in the way of destinations other than
a bad hamburger.

huh?

I guess pilots can be grouped into two groups: one group that loves to fly,
the destination is completely unimportant, the other group doesn't understand
the love of flying.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

"Bob Noel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Dave Stadt" wrote:

It is also pretty boring without much in the way of destinations other
than
a bad hamburger.

huh?

I guess pilots can be grouped into two groups: one group that loves to
fly,
the destination is completely unimportant, the other group doesn't
understand
the love of flying.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

It doesn't take long for most people to get bored going up and just boring
holes in the sky. Might be OK for those that only fly 20 hours a year but I
doubt there are many that fly 100+ hours a year just to see the same scenery
flight, after flight, after flight. I have seen many lose interest not long
after passing the check ride due to boredom. Seems to me one way to
increase interest is to develop destinations and groups to sponsor fly-outs
and other activities. The late 40s, 50s and 60s saw a lot of this type of
activity, a healthy GA and lotsa airport activity. For the most part that
is not so today.

The other issue to think about is that it seems that huge numbers of
people millions can find the money in the household budget for
boats... And if you think that flying bends the budget, hang around
the local marina and go to a few boat shows... The crowds slobbering
over $15,000 dingies and $1,500,000 Hatteras, is mind boggling...
In considering this fact it occurs to me that the crucial difference
between flying and boating is the intrusion of federal regulation into
flying which forms the almost insurmountable barrier to entry, not the
price of admission... Officious little people with the power to harass
and attack you over minor issues ramp check anyone!, ATC recording
every turn on the radar track and every transmission, reams of
regulations, recurrent training, licensing actually certification...

With a boat you sign the bank contract, grab the keys and go... In a
few states you have to take a nominal boating course - 3 hours on a
thursday night and a ten question exam on the level of, "what side is
the red buoy when going up the river?"

Anyway, it is the hassle factor that is more the barrier to attracting
the twenty something into flying than dull airports... It is the
locked gates, the video cameras, the threats of fines and government
sanctions, the trolling of your driving record, the demand that you
surrender your doctor's chart, the security background checks, having
to hand over your certificate at the whim of some pot bellied, tooth
pick chewing yahoo, for his official blessing, having to ask permission
from the control tower to even move your plane across the ramp, etc.,
that turns off the MTV generation... The money is out there... Watch
the $50,000 SUV's towing the sleek, ski boats heading out of town on
Friday afternoon, to go burn a 100 gallons of gas for the weekend...

denny

In considering this fact it occurs to me that the crucial difference
between flying and boating is the intrusion of federal regulation

IMHO that's not even close.

With a boat, you can socialize on the boat; you don't have to take the
boat anywhere. You can go somewhere and have an instant community of
friends just by hanging around the dock. You can take the boat a mile
offshore and just sit there all day, for entertainment.

An airplane does not have any of those features.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In article ,
Jose wrote:

With a boat, you can socialize on the boat; you don't have to take the
boat anywhere. You can go somewhere and have an instant community of
friends just by hanging around the dock. You can take the boat a mile
offshore and just sit there all day, for entertainment.

An airplane does not have any of those features.

not true. Witness Jay H. and his community of friends at the T's and
elsewhere. It's not the same, but to say airplanes do not have ANY of
those features is simply wrong.

Of course, with TSA crap at airports like KBED, it's now much much harder
to socialize than before. But other airports still offer that capability.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate