Blue Angels Question(s)

Our family went to the airshow in northern California last weekend. It
was a blast, to say the least. It blows me away to think about the
things people can do with planes and that they can have the
where-with-all to pull off some of the manuvers they do, and under the
G's they are pulling at times!

The Blue Angels were incredible, as were the rest of the performers,
but I left the show, as I'm sure others did, scratching my head
wondering how they do some of the things they do without tragic
results.

I heard that in some of the tight formation flying, they get as close
as 18 inches to each other. If this is true, and I have no reason to
believe it isn't, I have to wonder if they ever bump into one another?
If they were to bump into one another, would that be catastrophic, or
would they merely make contact and separate back into position? They
are all flying in the same direction, and at the same speed, so it's
conceivable that contact could be farily incidental.

Another question I had was regarding two Angels flying in opposite
directions and crossing by each other at a combined speed of 800 mph.
Do they have equipment on board that gives them precise situational
awareness, or do they use ground references? My thought was that one
of them could be lined up to fly right down the runway center-line, and
the other could line up just outside the runway which should guarantee
separation??? Their timing, so that they cross right at midfield is
amazing!

They put on an incredible show, and I'm glad my kids got a chance to
see them. I hadn't seen them in about 20 years, so I forgot how much
fun they were to watch.

Best Regards,
Todd

In a previous article, "three-eight-hotel" said:
as 18 inches to each other. If this is true, and I have no reason to
believe it isn't, I have to wonder if they ever bump into one another?

A few months ago two Thunderbirds made contact, and one knocked the
missile rail off the other. Nobody was hurt and everybody landed
successfully.

awareness, or do they use ground references? My thought was that one
of them could be lined up to fly right down the runway center-line, and
the other could line up just outside the runway which should guarantee
separation??? Their timing, so that they cross right at midfield is
amazing!

Snowbirds usually use the two edges of the runway.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"While you're waiting, read the free novel we sent you. It's a Spanish story
about a guy named `Manual'" - Dilbert

My impression is that slight contact during the tight formations is not
all that uncommon, and not generally a real problem - Just a bit of
touch-up painting required now and then ;o)

As far as the opposing pass maneuver, the aircraft are not lined up
horizontally, which is not really evident from the crowd line. Thus,
when they pass, they actually appear much closer than they really are.
Of course, at a closure rate of 1000mph, it wouldn't take much of a
mistake to turn tragic...

The midfield crossing maneuvers are done with a combination of site
reference points, speed control, and radio calls (from the flight
"Boss" flying plane #1). Presumably, all aircraft are flying at the
same speed, in different directions away from show center. At a
designated time/location, "Boss" makes a radio call so that all
aircraft climb (again, at a designated rate). Another radio call
signals the break at the top, where all aircraft decend toward show
center, again at identical speeds. If all goes well, they cross (at
slightly different altitudes) at show center. I've seen them get it
right, and I've seen them get it no-quite-right. )

Radio calls are used throughout the show, between the 2 "solo's" and
the diamond-guys, mostly from "Boss" - "Smoke on, ready, now" -- "Smoke
off, ready, now" "Up we go... a little more pull" "coming by show
center!" "prepare for the left echelon roll..." etc... etc... etc...

Get a radio scanner that can pick up military air frequencies, and
enjoy the show with a whole new perspective!

Regards,
Pat

Yes, they do "bump" once in a while in the formation. There have been
numerous sheet metal "benders" through the years. Naturally, these are
wingtip hits laterally rather than nose hits :-) I remember one of these
occasions quite vividly during the 73 season.
The flow patterns in the diamond are unique to close proximity similar
aircraft. I say similar because in a close Diamond of dis-similar aircraft,
the flow patterns would not be as predictable.
Tip vortices on the left and right wing positions in close tend to cause a
roll away from the opposite aircraft and have to be countered. You can
really feel this as you get in close.
Lead and the slot position have their trim affected as the slot sticks his
nose in where it should be. Lead can actually "feel" the slot in position
and knows by his trim change if the slot slides out too far. The trim change
is nose down for the lead and nose up for the slot, again caused by the flow
patterns.
It's not nearly as smooth in the Diamond as it looks to you from the ground.
There is a lot of movement going on in the formation, especially through
rough air. It takes intense concentration to hold position.
On the cross over question. They use pre-selected hack and checkpoints
briefed by photo recon before the show as well as radio calls when visual.
Timing on the high show bomb burst is a hack call down from lead to the
split S pull on his cadence. There is a visual call by each opposing
aircraft (lead/slot) (left/right wings) and adjustments made during the
downside recovery for altitude and airspeed to seek co-cross at show center.
Naturally, both sides of the runway are used. It saves a hell of a lot of
sheet metal work after the show :-)
Hope this helps a bit.
Dudley Henriques



"three-eight-hotel" wrote in message
ups.com...
Our family went to the airshow in northern California last weekend. It
was a blast, to say the least. It blows me away to think about the
things people can do with planes and that they can have the
where-with-all to pull off some of the manuvers they do, and under the
G's they are pulling at times!

The Blue Angels were incredible, as were the rest of the performers,
but I left the show, as I'm sure others did, scratching my head
wondering how they do some of the things they do without tragic
results.

I heard that in some of the tight formation flying, they get as close
as 18 inches to each other. If this is true, and I have no reason to
believe it isn't, I have to wonder if they ever bump into one another?
If they were to bump into one another, would that be catastrophic, or
would they merely make contact and separate back into position? They
are all flying in the same direction, and at the same speed, so it's
conceivable that contact could be farily incidental.

Another question I had was regarding two Angels flying in opposite
directions and crossing by each other at a combined speed of 800 mph.
Do they have equipment on board that gives them precise situational
awareness, or do they use ground references? My thought was that one
of them could be lined up to fly right down the runway center-line, and
the other could line up just outside the runway which should guarantee
separation??? Their timing, so that they cross right at midfield is
amazing!

They put on an incredible show, and I'm glad my kids got a chance to
see them. I hadn't seen them in about 20 years, so I forgot how much
fun they were to watch.

Best Regards,
Todd

"three-eight-hotel" wrote in message
ups.com...
[...]
I heard that in some of the tight formation flying, they get as close
as 18 inches to each other. If this is true, and I have no reason to
believe it isn't, I have to wonder if they ever bump into one another?
If they were to bump into one another, would that be catastrophic, or
would they merely make contact and separate back into position? They
are all flying in the same direction, and at the same speed, so it's
conceivable that contact could be farily incidental.

A slight bump may just ding up the paint a little. Harder bumps may damage
something without affecting flight characteristics. Of course, really bad
bumps can kill all pilots involved.

The fact is, bumps do happen but very occasionally. In spite of the close
quarters, the pilots are VERY good at what they do, and even when they are
18 inches apart, practically never touch each other. If they do, it's
almost never more than a glancing blow.

Another question I had was regarding two Angels flying in opposite
directions and crossing by each other at a combined speed of 800 mph.
Do they have equipment on board that gives them precise situational
awareness, or do they use ground references?

All of their maneuvers are done by outside visual reference, either to a
ground reference or to the formation.

Of course, in the case of head-on passes, they fly the airplanes quite a bit
farther from each other than it appears to be on the ground. As you note,
in addition to being separated laterally, it takes a great deal of skill and
planning to arrive at show center at precisely the same time. IMHO, that
part is probably harder than keeping the airplanes from hitting each other.

Pete

I read somewhere that during the Korean war, a wounded
plane/ pilot was kept on course to a water bail-out by
bumping the wing to keep the wings level. Any truth to
that?



--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in
message
ink.net...
| Yes, they do "bump" once in a while in the formation.
There have been
| numerous sheet metal "benders" through the years.
Naturally, these are
| wingtip hits laterally rather than nose hits :-) I
remember one of these
| occasions quite vividly during the 73 season.
| The flow patterns in the diamond are unique to close
proximity similar
| aircraft. I say similar because in a close Diamond of
dis-similar aircraft,
| the flow patterns would not be as predictable.
| Tip vortices on the left and right wing positions in close
tend to cause a
| roll away from the opposite aircraft and have to be
countered. You can
| really feel this as you get in close.
| Lead and the slot position have their trim affected as the
slot sticks his
| nose in where it should be. Lead can actually "feel" the
slot in position
| and knows by his trim change if the slot slides out too
far. The trim change
| is nose down for the lead and nose up for the slot, again
caused by the flow
| patterns.
| It's not nearly as smooth in the Diamond as it looks to
you from the ground.
| There is a lot of movement going on in the formation,
especially through
| rough air. It takes intense concentration to hold
position.
| On the cross over question. They use pre-selected hack and
checkpoints
| briefed by photo recon before the show as well as radio
calls when visual.
| Timing on the high show bomb burst is a hack call down
from lead to the
| split S pull on his cadence. There is a visual call by
each opposing
| aircraft (lead/slot) (left/right wings) and adjustments
made during the
| downside recovery for altitude and airspeed to seek
co-cross at show center.
| Naturally, both sides of the runway are used. It saves a
hell of a lot of
| sheet metal work after the show :-)
| Hope this helps a bit.
| Dudley Henriques
|
|
|
| "three-eight-hotel" wrote in
message
|
ups.com...
| Our family went to the airshow in northern California
last weekend. It
| was a blast, to say the least. It blows me away to
think about the
| things people can do with planes and that they can have
the
| where-with-all to pull off some of the manuvers they do,
and under the
| G's they are pulling at times!
|
| The Blue Angels were incredible, as were the rest of the
performers,
| but I left the show, as I'm sure others did, scratching
my head
| wondering how they do some of the things they do without
tragic
| results.
|
| I heard that in some of the tight formation flying, they
get as close
| as 18 inches to each other. If this is true, and I have
no reason to
| believe it isn't, I have to wonder if they ever bump
into one another?
| If they were to bump into one another, would that be
catastrophic, or
| would they merely make contact and separate back into
position? They
| are all flying in the same direction, and at the same
speed, so it's
| conceivable that contact could be farily incidental.
|
| Another question I had was regarding two Angels flying
in opposite
| directions and crossing by each other at a combined
speed of 800 mph.
| Do they have equipment on board that gives them precise
situational
| awareness, or do they use ground references? My thought
was that one
| of them could be lined up to fly right down the runway
center-line, and
| the other could line up just outside the runway which
should guarantee
| separation??? Their timing, so that they cross right at
midfield is
| amazing!
|
| They put on an incredible show, and I'm glad my kids got
a chance to
| see them. I hadn't seen them in about 20 years, so I
forgot how much
| fun they were to watch.
|
| Best Regards,
| Todd
|
|
|

Sounds like Bob Pardo's little "adventure" in Viet Nam. He lives out in
Colorado today.
Bob literally "pushed" Earl Aman's damaged F4 most of the way home with his
own F4's windshield by getting Earl to lower the tailhook and snagging it on
the base of his own windshield.
Truly a magnificent feat.
I think Aman still lives out near San Antonio last I heard.
Don't know about Korea. There was a story that came out of Korea involving
two pilots flying F9F's when one talked the other back to the carrier.
Mitchner did a story on it. "Men of the Fighting Lady" with Van Johnson and
Dewy Martin as the two pilots involved.
Dudley


"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:BNBUf.452$t22.204@dukeread08...
I read somewhere that during the Korean war, a wounded
plane/ pilot was kept on course to a water bail-out by
bumping the wing to keep the wings level. Any truth to
that?



--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in
message
ink.net...
| Yes, they do "bump" once in a while in the formation.
There have been
| numerous sheet metal "benders" through the years.
Naturally, these are
| wingtip hits laterally rather than nose hits :-) I
remember one of these
| occasions quite vividly during the 73 season.
| The flow patterns in the diamond are unique to close
proximity similar
| aircraft. I say similar because in a close Diamond of
dis-similar aircraft,
| the flow patterns would not be as predictable.
| Tip vortices on the left and right wing positions in close
tend to cause a
| roll away from the opposite aircraft and have to be
countered. You can
| really feel this as you get in close.
| Lead and the slot position have their trim affected as the
slot sticks his
| nose in where it should be. Lead can actually "feel" the
slot in position
| and knows by his trim change if the slot slides out too
far. The trim change
| is nose down for the lead and nose up for the slot, again
caused by the flow
| patterns.
| It's not nearly as smooth in the Diamond as it looks to
you from the ground.
| There is a lot of movement going on in the formation,
especially through
| rough air. It takes intense concentration to hold
position.
| On the cross over question. They use pre-selected hack and
checkpoints
| briefed by photo recon before the show as well as radio
calls when visual.
| Timing on the high show bomb burst is a hack call down
from lead to the
| split S pull on his cadence. There is a visual call by
each opposing
| aircraft (lead/slot) (left/right wings) and adjustments
made during the
| downside recovery for altitude and airspeed to seek
co-cross at show center.
| Naturally, both sides of the runway are used. It saves a
hell of a lot of
| sheet metal work after the show :-)
| Hope this helps a bit.
| Dudley Henriques
|
|
|
| "three-eight-hotel" wrote in
message
|
ups.com...
| Our family went to the airshow in northern California
last weekend. It
| was a blast, to say the least. It blows me away to
think about the
| things people can do with planes and that they can have
the
| where-with-all to pull off some of the manuvers they do,
and under the
| G's they are pulling at times!
|
| The Blue Angels were incredible, as were the rest of the
performers,
| but I left the show, as I'm sure others did, scratching
my head
| wondering how they do some of the things they do without
tragic
| results.
|
| I heard that in some of the tight formation flying, they
get as close
| as 18 inches to each other. If this is true, and I have
no reason to
| believe it isn't, I have to wonder if they ever bump
into one another?
| If they were to bump into one another, would that be
catastrophic, or
| would they merely make contact and separate back into
position? They
| are all flying in the same direction, and at the same
speed, so it's
| conceivable that contact could be farily incidental.
|
| Another question I had was regarding two Angels flying
in opposite
| directions and crossing by each other at a combined
speed of 800 mph.
| Do they have equipment on board that gives them precise
situational
| awareness, or do they use ground references? My thought
was that one
| of them could be lined up to fly right down the runway
center-line, and
| the other could line up just outside the runway which
should guarantee
| separation??? Their timing, so that they cross right at
midfield is
| amazing!
|
| They put on an incredible show, and I'm glad my kids got
a chance to
| see them. I hadn't seen them in about 20 years, so I
forgot how much
| fun they were to watch.
|
| Best Regards,
| Todd
|
|
|

I've seen that movie, a good one. Also a movie, Hunters
with F86.

Bridges at Toko Ri is good too.


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in
message
link.net...
| Sounds like Bob Pardo's little "adventure" in Viet Nam. He
lives out in
| Colorado today.
| Bob literally "pushed" Earl Aman's damaged F4 most of the
way home with his
| own F4's windshield by getting Earl to lower the tailhook
and snagging it on
| the base of his own windshield.
| Truly a magnificent feat.
| I think Aman still lives out near San Antonio last I
heard.
| Don't know about Korea. There was a story that came out of
Korea involving
| two pilots flying F9F's when one talked the other back to
the carrier.
| Mitchner did a story on it. "Men of the Fighting Lady"
with Van Johnson and
| Dewy Martin as the two pilots involved.
| Dudley
|
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:BNBUf.452$t22.204@dukeread08...
| I read somewhere that during the Korean war, a wounded
| plane/ pilot was kept on course to a water bail-out by
| bumping the wing to keep the wings level. Any truth to
| that?
|
|
|
| --
| The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
| But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
| some support
| http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
| See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and
duties.
|
|
| "Dudley Henriques" wrote in
| message
|
ink.net...
| | Yes, they do "bump" once in a while in the formation.
| There have been
| | numerous sheet metal "benders" through the years.
| Naturally, these are
| | wingtip hits laterally rather than nose hits :-) I
| remember one of these
| | occasions quite vividly during the 73 season.
| | The flow patterns in the diamond are unique to close
| proximity similar
| | aircraft. I say similar because in a close Diamond of
| dis-similar aircraft,
| | the flow patterns would not be as predictable.
| | Tip vortices on the left and right wing positions in
close
| tend to cause a
| | roll away from the opposite aircraft and have to be
| countered. You can
| | really feel this as you get in close.
| | Lead and the slot position have their trim affected as
the
| slot sticks his
| | nose in where it should be. Lead can actually "feel"
the
| slot in position
| | and knows by his trim change if the slot slides out
too
| far. The trim change
| | is nose down for the lead and nose up for the slot,
again
| caused by the flow
| | patterns.
| | It's not nearly as smooth in the Diamond as it looks
to
| you from the ground.
| | There is a lot of movement going on in the formation,
| especially through
| | rough air. It takes intense concentration to hold
| position.
| | On the cross over question. They use pre-selected hack
and
| checkpoints
| | briefed by photo recon before the show as well as
radio
| calls when visual.
| | Timing on the high show bomb burst is a hack call down
| from lead to the
| | split S pull on his cadence. There is a visual call by
| each opposing
| | aircraft (lead/slot) (left/right wings) and
adjustments
| made during the
| | downside recovery for altitude and airspeed to seek
| co-cross at show center.
| | Naturally, both sides of the runway are used. It saves
a
| hell of a lot of
| | sheet metal work after the show :-)
| | Hope this helps a bit.
| | Dudley Henriques
| |
| |
| |
| | "three-eight-hotel" wrote
in
| message
| |
|
ups.com...
| | Our family went to the airshow in northern
California
| last weekend. It
| | was a blast, to say the least. It blows me away to
| think about the
| | things people can do with planes and that they can
have
| the
| | where-with-all to pull off some of the manuvers they
do,
| and under the
| | G's they are pulling at times!
| |
| | The Blue Angels were incredible, as were the rest of
the
| performers,
| | but I left the show, as I'm sure others did,
scratching
| my head
| | wondering how they do some of the things they do
without
| tragic
| | results.
| |
| | I heard that in some of the tight formation flying,
they
| get as close
| | as 18 inches to each other. If this is true, and I
have
| no reason to
| | believe it isn't, I have to wonder if they ever bump
| into one another?
| | If they were to bump into one another, would that be
| catastrophic, or
| | would they merely make contact and separate back
into
| position? They
| | are all flying in the same direction, and at the
same
| speed, so it's
| | conceivable that contact could be farily incidental.
| |
| | Another question I had was regarding two Angels
flying
| in opposite
| | directions and crossing by each other at a combined
| speed of 800 mph.
| | Do they have equipment on board that gives them
precise
| situational
| | awareness, or do they use ground references? My
thought
| was that one
| | of them could be lined up to fly right down the
runway
| center-line, and
| | the other could line up just outside the runway
which
| should guarantee
| | separation??? Their timing, so that they cross
right at
| midfield is
| | amazing!
| |
| | They put on an incredible show, and I'm glad my kids
got
| a chance to
| | see them. I hadn't seen them in about 20 years, so
I
| forgot how much
| | fun they were to watch.
| |
| | Best Regards,
| | Todd
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:4jCUf.456$t22.106@dukeread08...
I've seen that movie, a good one. Also a movie, Hunters
with F86.

Bridges at Toko Ri is good too.

I have a great affinity for "God is My Co-Pilot" naturally, as I knew Scotty
personally, but my all time favorite air movie has to be "12'o'clock High",
and strangely enough, it's not the air sequences I liked so much in the
film.
The opening sequence with Dean Jagger, the mug, the bicycle, the fence, the
airfield, then the flashback, has to be one of the finest segway sequences
ever filmed. The ending as well, coming back to the present with Jagger
leaving as he came in on the bike truly put a master's touch of film making
on this picture.
Dudley

I dated a girl whose father was a bombardier with that
group. They just ran God is my Co-pilot" a week or so ago.

For the flying movies though, Island in the Sky may be my
favorite, even if John Wayne looks like he's sawing wood
with the ailerons. Andy Devine was perfect as was the rest
of the supporting crew. Some of the formation flights and
music are beautifully done.


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in
message
ink.net...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:4jCUf.456$t22.106@dukeread08...
| I've seen that movie, a good one. Also a movie, Hunters
| with F86.
|
| Bridges at Toko Ri is good too.
|
| I have a great affinity for "God is My Co-Pilot"
naturally, as I knew Scotty
| personally, but my all time favorite air movie has to be
"12'o'clock High",
| and strangely enough, it's not the air sequences I liked
so much in the
| film.
| The opening sequence with Dean Jagger, the mug, the
bicycle, the fence, the
| airfield, then the flashback, has to be one of the finest
segway sequences
| ever filmed. The ending as well, coming back to the
present with Jagger
| leaving as he came in on the bike truly put a master's
touch of film making
| on this picture.
| Dudley
|
|