Rotax engines- LSA's hope, or curse?

On 2006-04-11, Dave Stadt wrote:
Trust me I saw it a couple of weeks ago. My guess is he realized they would
be easier to sell with the Continental. Can't see why a Champ would be any
more expensive to insure as an LSA than they are now.

It's probably specifically to do with low-time tailwheel pilots more
than anything else. I suspect most (non-sport pilot) Champ owners have a
reasonable amount of tailwheel time since these planes are hardly ever
used as trainers now, more as personal aircraft for people who like the
Champ. A new LSA pilot buying a Champ is probably as expensive to insure
as a student tailwheel pilot - in an expensive hull.

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

From what I have read on this, there were a couple of things in play...

First, Continental came out with a "lightweight" O-200.

And by going with the O-200 American Champion could build it under the old
Champ type certificate, but by meeting the LSA restrictions, could also sell
it into the LSA market.




"Helen" wrote in message
...
Dave Stadt wrote:
American Champion is re-introducing the Champ with brand new O-200s.
All
dolled up it looks to be $84K. It knock the socks off the plastic, god
awful ugly LSAs I have seen.

You sure about that? When I met the owner of the company a few years
back he was gung-ho on putting the Champ in production with a Jabaru.
At the time, his hold up was finding a prop that would match the engine
and not over speed. If he went with the O-200 I'm betting it was
because of the prop problem, not a concern with the Jabaru.

One advantage that the "the plastic, god awful ugly LSAs" do have over
the Champ is the insurance. Check out the article in this month's Sport
Pilot magazine about the problems insuring an LSA taildragger.

Helen

My local FBO has a J-3 cub that they wanted to rent out to light sport
pilots. They found it impossible to find insurance that permitted them to
do that. The only company they could find that would insure a tail dragger
for rental, required all pilots to have regular private licenses with
current medicals.

This FBO is now acquiring a ROTAX 912 powered Flight Design CTSW light sport
aircraft. I just got check out in this plane this week. It's absolutely
gorgeous. Being a tricycle gear, insurance is not an issue.

Mike Schumann

"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
om...

"Helen" wrote in message
...
Dave Stadt wrote:
American Champion is re-introducing the Champ with brand new O-200s.
All dolled up it looks to be $84K. It knock the socks off the plastic,
god awful ugly LSAs I have seen.

You sure about that? When I met the owner of the company a few years
back he was gung-ho on putting the Champ in production with a Jabaru. At
the time, his hold up was finding a prop that would match the engine and
not over speed. If he went with the O-200 I'm betting it was because of
the prop problem, not a concern with the Jabaru.

One advantage that the "the plastic, god awful ugly LSAs" do have over
the Champ is the insurance. Check out the article in this month's Sport
Pilot magazine about the problems insuring an LSA taildragger.

Helen

Trust me I saw it a couple of weeks ago. My guess is he realized they
would be easier to sell with the Continental. Can't see why a Champ would
be any more expensive to insure as an LSA than they are now. A new one
would obviously be more as the hull value is much more.

"Morgans" wrote in message
...
I see that two LSA aircrafts that had already been certified, crashed on
their way to SnF, when their engines failed on takeoff. Pilots are badly
injured, but alive, thank goodness. At least the slow speed, low energy
philosophy of the LSA seems to be allowing people to survive bad incidents.

Am I the only one who thinks that Rotax still leaves a lot to be desired,
even their 4 strokes?

I still will not set foot inside an aircraft that is powered by one.
Until an alternate engine is available, LSA is dead on arrival, IMHO.

Jubaru? I don't know. There are more than a few bad reports on them,
too. O-200's are still a choice, as are C-85's, I suppose, but weight and
price makes them somewhat questionable.

I hate to be the pessimist, and I am not a troll, for those who know me
here, but what is a person to do? I had to get it off my chest.
--
Jim in NC

No but I bet you would "set foot" inside an aircraft powered by a Lycomming
(broken crankshafts) or Continental (broken big end bolts)... These two
engines have killed more pilots than Rotax or Jabiru. I find it amusing
that some people just can't see the forest for the trees. We had two pilots
killed here in Australia in the past two weeks both flying Lycommings, one
failed after take off and the other on approach to land. Investigations are
continuing. Don't kid yourself, all engines fail for a variety of reasons.

Now, if your anti-LSA, why don't you just say so.

Bob.

"Bob O'Rilley" wrote in message
...

"Morgans" wrote in message
...
I see that two LSA aircrafts that had already been certified, crashed on
their way to SnF, when their engines failed on takeoff. Pilots are badly
injured, but alive, thank goodness. At least the slow speed, low energy
philosophy of the LSA seems to be allowing people to survive bad
incidents.

Am I the only one who thinks that Rotax still leaves a lot to be desired,
even their 4 strokes?

I still will not set foot inside an aircraft that is powered by one.
Until an alternate engine is available, LSA is dead on arrival, IMHO.

Jubaru? I don't know. There are more than a few bad reports on them,
too. O-200's are still a choice, as are C-85's, I suppose, but weight and
price makes them somewhat questionable.

I hate to be the pessimist, and I am not a troll, for those who know me
here, but what is a person to do? I had to get it off my chest.
--
Jim in NC

No but I bet you would "set foot" inside an aircraft powered by a
Lycomming (broken crankshafts) or Continental (broken big end bolts)...
These two engines have killed more pilots than Rotax or Jabiru. I find it
amusing that some people just can't see the forest for the trees.

Considering that Lycoming and Continental have BILLIONS (TRILLIONS ?? ) of
hours flying, it's not surprising that they've killed more pilots. What's
also amusing is people that can't correlate data but shoot their mouth off
anyway.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

When I was a full time CFI in 2001, my flight school had an early
Katana with the 80hp Rotax & CS prop. I took an interest in the plane
(nobody else did - it was a ramp queen) and flew it probably 15-20
hours. While that is hardly enough time to make a truly informed
opinion about the engine, I've heard from A&P types that the 4 strokes
hold up quite well, even with their funky combination air/liquid
cooling. At 5gph in cruise @ 115kt (Katana) it's cheap to run as well.
The TBO was raised from 1200 to 1500 in 2003, and even though that's
still low compared to the typical 2000TBO for most NA Contis & Lycs I'm
guessing overhaul costs are proportional.

"Bob O'Rilley" wrote

You must be new in here, so I'll cut you a little slack.

No but I bet you would "set foot" inside an aircraft powered by a
Lycomming (broken crankshafts) or Continental (broken big end bolts)...

I have expressed my reservations about these engines in the past, also.
Statistically, the failures are relatively small.

These two engines have killed more pilots than Rotax or Jabiru.

Only because they have about a bazillion more engines flying! Golly, are
you that dense?

I find it amusing that some people just can't see the forest for the
trees. We had two pilots killed here in Australia in the past two weeks
both flying Lycommings, one failed after take off and the other on
approach to land. Investigations are continuing. Don't kid yourself, all
engines fail for a variety of reasons.

Yes, they do, and many times because of neglect, of one form or another. On
the other hand, the two LSA's that went down with their Rotax engines had
just been through the approval process, and have no doubt received much
attention and scruitiny. I certainly would not have expected a new
demonstrator to fail. But, where there are Rotax, .....

Now, if your anti-LSA, why don't you just say so.

In this use, I think you intended to use the spelling of "you're."

Once again, I will give you a break, but I am hardly anti GA.
--
Jim in NC

Taylorcraft, too, is back, building Taylorcrafts and Taylor Cubs with
0-200 engines, a bit cheaper ($69,995). Models with 0-235 or 0-360
are also available, for more money, though those won't be LSA... and
the mother of all indecencies, a *nosewheel* equipped version...

-Dana

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:03:53 -0700, "BTIZ"
wrote:

Same with the Legend Cub.. a slight rework of the original J-3, LSA
qualified and about the same price range
BT

"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
...

American Champion is re-introducing the Champ with brand new O-200s. All
dolled up it looks to be $84K. It knock the socks off the plastic, god
awful ugly LSAs I have seen.

--
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("Morgans" wrote)
Now, if your anti-LSA, why don't you just say so.

In this use, I think you intended to use the spelling of "you're."

Once again, I will give you a break, but I am hardly anti GA.


In this use, I think you intended to use the acronym "LSA". g


Montblack

Well, there's a couple of things going on. Without commenting on the
crashes you mention, which I know nothing about, the majority of Rotax
engines are installed on ultralights... with all the variance in care
and maintenance that you see on ultralights. Some are well
maintained, and others aren't maintained at all... and it shows in
their reliability.

Second, to the get the kind of power to weight ratio UL's and LSA's
demand, you have to turn the engine faster. This naturally leads to
reduced reliability... an A-85 redlined at 2500 rpm (IIRC) is just
naturally going to last longer than a 912 redlined at 5800 rpm... and
the A-85 weighs a LOT more... and both weigh more than a comparable
2-stroke. It's all about compromises.

-Dana

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:43:20 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:

Am I the only one who thinks that Rotax still leaves a lot to be desired,
even their 4 strokes?

I still will not set foot inside an aircraft that is powered by one. Until
an alternate engine is available, LSA is dead on arrival, IMHO.
--
--
If replying by email, please make the obvious changes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm from the IRS. The government has spent all your tax money. Could we please have some more?