Fowler flaps?

Learn to slip!

"TJ400" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi John.. can you suggest a link with a good illustration/ plans,
please (anything is welcome)... looking for anything right about
now.... I've been told by someone who has built and flown a 2+2 from a
PA-22 (certified Aircraft Mechanic) that the limitations of this
airplane as a bush plane is not it's capability of taking off and
getting out of small lakes, but rather landing and finally touching
down after flare out.... with Super Cub wings installed, this thing is
a kite and seems to take forever to finally touch down...

He claims with a system like a fowler not so much is the change in
stall speed important but rather a steeper approach so flaring as close
to the downwind end of the lake/ obstacle is possible... This will
provide better nose down attitude for vision also...

The gentleman mentioned above and myself are now building a pair of
sister airplanes together in the same shop... I'm trying to gather a
little research on the flap dilemma while he shows me how to build the
rest of a 2+2...

I welcome ANY and ALL advice regarding this subject...

TJ

"TJ400" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi John.. can you suggest a link with a good illustration/ plans,
please (anything is welcome)... looking for anything right about
now.... I've been told by someone who has built and flown a 2+2 from a
PA-22 (certified Aircraft Mechanic) that the limitations of this
airplane as a bush plane is not it's capability of taking off and
getting out of small lakes, but rather landing and finally touching
down after flare out.... with Super Cub wings installed, this thing is
a kite and seems to take forever to finally touch down...

He claims with a system like a fowler not so much is the change in
stall speed important but rather a steeper approach so flaring as close
to the downwind end of the lake/ obstacle is possible... This will
provide better nose down attitude for vision also...

The gentleman mentioned above and myself are now building a pair of
sister airplanes together in the same shop... I'm trying to gather a
little research on the flap dilemma while he shows me how to build the
rst of a 2+2...

I welcome ANY and ALL advice regarding this subject...

TJ


Take a look at the flaps on any Cessna built in the last fifty years. That
is a Fowler type flap. That is why you need the tracks and rollers. They
allow the flap to extend to the rear while it is deflecting.

You can do almost as well much easier by merely dropping the hinge line for
the flaps some distance below the wing. See, for example, the flaps on a
Husky. That will give you 98% of the advantages of a full Fowler Flap with
a lot less engineering and a lot less mechanism.

Remember the cardinal rule in aircraft design "Simplificate and add
lightness!"

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

Remember, the r.a.h. Flyin at Pinckneyville is this weekend, May 19, 20, and
21. Start flightplanning now.

TJ400 wrote:

"Learn to slip!"

now that's it, heck I'll forget about flap construction completely and
slip on approach for the rest of my flying days! Makes for quicker
build time...

love unusual attitudes, at low airspeeds, close to ground level, with
floats attached...:-)


need to look at the 150 Cessna flap construction more closely...
thanks..


Don't.

None of it "looks" anywhere near strong enough...

"Learn to slip!"

now that's it, heck I'll forget about flap construction completely and
slip on approach for the rest of my flying days! Makes for quicker
build time...

love unusual attitudes, at low airspeeds, close to ground level, with
floats attached...:-)


need to look at the 150 Cessna flap construction more closely...
thanks..

My rebel slips just fine on floats thanks. It's a good thing cuz the
flaperons don't really make much of a difference. Of course if you're
close to the ground in a floatplane you might have other worries. I
don't think you appreciate how much drag there is from your floats and
how easy it is to land in a lake that you have no hope of ever taking
off from again.

I was being humerous and do appreciate drag from a slip, I just prefer
not needing to slip on approach but having a great flap system where
creating drag, lowering stall speed and creating lift are all part of
it's design.... the fowler or others I'm learning about, do that....
not fond of spoiler type devices because stall goes up... not fond of
slipping because it's an attitude conducive to spins, if airspeed is
not correct... just looking for pure saftey and practicality... still
open to suggestions...

thanks again..

tj..

On 17 May 2006 04:29:55 -0700, "TJ400" wrote:

I was being humerous and do appreciate drag from a slip, I just prefer
not needing to slip on approach but having a great flap system where
creating drag, lowering stall speed and creating lift are all part of
it's design.... the fowler or others I'm learning about, do that....
not fond of spoiler type devices because stall goes up... not fond of
slipping because it's an attitude conducive to spins, if airspeed is
not correct... just looking for pure saftey and practicality... still
open to suggestions...

thanks again..

tj..

I got the humor I'm trying to say that float planes don't need more
drag. Lowering stall speed is a good thing but you only need a little
flap for that. Something else to consider is when you select full
flaps can you still open the doors? Float planes end up on their
backs fairly regularly usually without any injuries but if you can't
get out because of the flaps you're in big trouble.

not fond of spoiler type devices because stall goes up...

Only if you use them! If you find yourself short with flaps hung out
and retract them your CL goes - down - and so do you until the airspeed
picks up. In the same situation with spoilers the CL goes up and the
glide angle flattens out.

Of course if you are 100% confident that the power is going to be there
just drag it in on the prop..........

Think air brake rather than spoiler if that helps.
==============
Leon McAtee
Just my opinion
\ Retracting spoilers
\
\....
`````......
........ Retracting flaps
```````.......
\
\....
``````

("TJ400" wrote)
"Float planes end up on their backs fairly regularly usually without any
injuries but if you can't get out because of the flaps you're in big
trouble."

you've given me another design characteristic.... an important one at
that... thanks


A self-righting float plane?


Montblack :-)

wrote:
TJ
A very good book "The Flower Flap". A engineering hand book, By Harland
Fowler.
It has 90 pages of information about the history and engineering
Info. about the Fowler Flap. A good book for the aircraft Designers
and Builders.
I have used it for many years.

Sold by Aircraft Design Inc. Was $42.00
www.aircraftdesigns.com
Listed under books and software.


Is there anything similar for Junkers flaps.?

--

FF

wrote:
with Super Cub wings installed, this thing is

a kite and seems to take forever to finally touch down...

Spoilers like the old T'cart's? A WHOLE lot easier to do than Fowlers
or even slotted flaps. Besides Spoilers are better for glide path
control than flaps anyway - IMHO

For ideas go look at some gliders.
===============
Leon McAtee

As a glider pilot I agree. This is a perfect suggestion! TJ, find
someone with a set of Wag Aero Sportsman 2+2 plans and copy the spoiler
arrangement.

For the flaps, just copy a Citabria or Super Cub setup. Flaps along
with spoilers give incredible glide path control. You can set up a max
lift configuration with flaps and a moderate power setting to limit
sink, and use the spoilers to fly to the exact spot you want to touch
down. Just like a glider.

The ability to place the airplane exactly where you want it that you get
with spoilers will just about eliminate your fear of engine outs as long
as there is a reasonably sized open space within gliding range.


John