What is Purpose of Sports Class Nationals?

Wallace Berry wrote:

Oh, one other thing - Frank, tell me again what the heck winglets are
supposed to do for an LS-4 (besides look cool?)

Well, they are supposed to improve low-speed handling and thermalling
performance by reducing induced drag, while not costing anything at the
high end of the speed range. I think they actually do improve
performance as advertised, but I don't have any hard data to support
this, other than the wind tunnel & flight data obtained in by the folks
who adapted the LS-8 winglets to the LS-4.

But hey, they *do* look cool! ;-).

Frank(X3)

Frank wrote:
Wallace Berry wrote:

Oh, one other thing - Frank, tell me again what the heck winglets are
supposed to do for an LS-4 (besides look cool?)

Well, they are supposed to improve low-speed handling and thermalling
performance by reducing induced drag, while not costing anything at the
high end of the speed range. I think they actually do improve
performance as advertised, but I don't have any hard data to support
this, other than the wind tunnel & flight data obtained in by the folks
who adapted the LS-8 winglets to the LS-4.

But hey, they *do* look cool! ;-).

Frank(X3)

There's also been increased interest in the Sports Class nationals
since the national trophy was endowed in 1999. National trophy
endowments are about $5000 for transport and preservation of a place
for the champion's name.

Frank Whiteley

All gliders could fly the class with a handicap as is done
now but team members would only be selected from those pilots flying a
true Club Class glider.

The trouble with this system is that few top-caliber US pilots are
going to leave the good glider at home and fly a nationals in a
borrowed standard cirrus. Our team will then be picked from a very
small group of "specialists." The result is unlikely to be teams that
do well at worlds. If you want teams that do well at worlds, you have
to pick from the largest possible group of pilots.

Of course, it all depends what we want. If we want to create a place
where a small group of dedicated club class specialists can get to the
worlds relatively easily, then this limitation will do splendidly. If
we want a selection system that send the best possible team, then I
don't see any reason for the idea.

John Cochrane (Who is very, very unlikely to spend two precious weeks
flying a standard cirrus when I have an ASW27 sitting pathetically
unused!)

John,

Furthermore, the FAI clases are also "specialists
BB wrote:
All gliders could fly the class with a handicap as is done
now but team members would only be selected from those pilots flying a
true Club Class glider.

The trouble with this system is that few top-caliber US pilots are
going to leave the good glider at home and fly a nationals in a
borrowed standard cirrus. Our team will then be picked from a very
small group of "specialists." The result is unlikely to be teams that
do well at worlds. If you want teams that do well at worlds, you have
to pick from the largest possible group of pilots.

But you and your ASW27 already have a shot at the 15m National
Championship, and the corresponding chance for a slot on the US Team in
15m competition. Are you saying you and your ASW27 want *two* chances,
one as a 15m "specialist" and another as a SC entrant, as opposed to
zero for the pure SC "specialist"? And while I"m at it, what is the
difference between the 15m (or Std, 18m, Open, or World Class)
"specialist" and the SC "specialist"?

In 2005 there were only 23 entries at the Std Class Nats, a "small
group" in anyone's estimation. What's the difference between this
situation and one where 23 SC "specialists" compete for a team slot?

A logical extension of your "more pilots are better" argument would be
to combine the Std, 15m, 18m & Open classes into one contest. The Std
& 15m ships would have no chance of winning, but what the heck - there
would be more top-notch pilots to pick from. When the Open & 18m
pilots are selected for the worlds, they can go to all the world meets
and just borrow the appropriate glider for each event.

Of course, it all depends what we want. If we want to create a place
where a small group of dedicated club class specialists can get to the
worlds relatively easily, then this limitation will do splendidly. If
we want a selection system that send the best possible team, then I
don't see any reason for the idea.

What I want to create is a place where SC pilots have a chance to
compete with other SC pilots for the SC National Championship, just
like 15m pilots compete against other 15m pilots for the 15m National
Championship - is that too much to ask?

Frank(who is very, very unlikely to ever be able to afford an ASW27)

John Cochrane (Who is very, very unlikely to spend two precious weeks
flying a standard cirrus when I have an ASW27 sitting pathetically
unused!)

Frank wrote:
John,

But you and your ASW27 already have a shot at the 15m National
Championship, and the corresponding chance for a slot on the US Team in
15m competition. Are you saying you and your ASW27 want *two* chances,
one as a 15m "specialist" and another as a SC entrant, as opposed to
zero for the pure SC "specialist"?

Why does the pure SC "specialist" have zero chance? Doesn't he receive
a SC handicap that will make him competitive against the newer gliders?
If not, isn't that just a matter of correcting the handicaps?


And while I"m at it, what is the
difference between the 15m (or Std, 18m, Open, or World Class)
"specialist" and the SC "specialist"?

In 2005 there were only 23 entries at the Std Class Nats, a "small
group" in anyone's estimation. What's the difference between this
situation and one where 23 SC "specialists" compete for a team slot?

Where will these 23 SC "specialists" come from if you limit entry to
older gliders? Most pilots with the drive to be competitive at the very
top levels have top-notch gliders, and will not show up if they have to
fly an older glider. Eliminate these pilots, and you will kill off the
Sports Class. I really doubt if there is a group of pilots out there
who (1) are aggressive competitors but (2) aren't aggressive enough to
currently compete in SC because of all those darn newer gliders that
show up.

I think the central point is being missed. The European
Club-Class is a very competitive, low cost entry into
competition flying at the highest level. It tends
to attract younger (relatively poorer) pilots and whilst
may not seem attractive on your side of the pond, is
a HUGE success over here and has been the starting
point for many new world class (no, not that World
Class!) competition pilots who have gone on to compete
in the more traditional classes.

If an ASW27 pilot wants to fly his/her ASW27, great,
but don't kid yourselves they will be competitive in
a Cirrus. The fact that if you had a specialist qualifier
it might throw up some new 'unfamilier' names should
be great news...that's the whole point!

Finally this 'you need a race prepared glider that
costs nearly as much as a new one' is just complete
rubbish...sure it needs to have reasonable instruments,
be sealed well and not have lumps of gel hanging off,
but none of that is beyond the means of some hard work
and effort. You can buy a ready to go competitive
club class glider for a lot less than $20,000...of
couse if that is all ASW27's cost on your side of the
world then let me in!

I hope you guys see the light, it's a truely great
class...

Chris





At 02:12 29 June 2006, Bb wrote:
Of course, it all depends what we want. If we want
to create a place
where a small group of dedicated club class specialists
can get to the
worlds relatively easily, then this limitation will
do splendidly.

X3 and all:

Please let me get up on my soapbox for a second as I prepare to go off
to Club Class WGC on Saturday. I hope my comments here can spur the
development of this class here in the US so I can truly come home to a
class of my own.

Speaking as one of the few American pilots who is a SC/Club Class
"specialist", the reason I am a "specialist" in sports/club class is
that I own a Libelle. Why? Because this is all I can afford and this is
what I am stuck with. There are many VERY good racing pilots (David
Stevenson, Manfred Franke, etc.) and aspiring racing pilots who are in
these type of ships because they are affordable OR they have seen the
folly of investing $75K-100k in "keeping up with the Joneses" to be
competitive in the other classes. The rest of the world lets pilots of
these ships have a class of their own. Why not let US pilots of these
ships have their own class and see if it can be made to work as
successfully as in Europe???The Club Class Concept, as proven in
Europe, has developed a "lower"-cost entry into top flight racing. I
firmly believe this concept would prove popular in the U.S. - if only
it was given the space, support and time to develop.

The truth be known, I really love Club Class ships and, echoing Chris
Davison's (sp?) comments from across the pond, I believe the club class
ships are a terrific way to hone important racing skills like judgment
and consideration of x-c speed vs. performance that then lead these
type of pilots on to great success at the FAI Class levels. It should
be absolutely be viewed as a competitive class in its own right, but
with the view to developing pilots into the more expensive classes - IF
these pilots choose to leave this racing class.

In fact, take a look at the club class "specialists" that are
"slumming" it flying Libelles, Cirri, LS-1's and Std Jantars at Vinon
in two weeks: Sebastian Kawa (World #1 - did not see him at the "real"
Worlds in Sweden), Uli Schwenk, Petr Krejirck, Olivier Darroze,
Vittorio Pinni, Erik Borgmann, Richard Hood, Jay Rebbeck, etc (Not to
mention DS, EY and W3). Take a close look. This may be the most talent
laden class in the entire FAI system with both established stars and
MANY young "up and comers" fully committed to this class before they
move "up" - most likely to take some names and kick some ass there too.
It makes me wonder how deep the talent pool is and would be in the US
if we developed this class. Unless you hit it big or have a parent with
the hot ship, how many young pilots are going to be handed a new ship
whenever they want to go racing here in the US?

Some Comments to poters:

X3 - Thanks for the vote of confidence in considering my SC Nats win a
total "freak". I will agree that it was a contest that favored my
Libelle. However, even in these weak conditions, W3 almost caught me in
his V2 - hardly a "soft" weather ship. And there were a few other weak
weather ships that did not do so well. Face it, racing and winning is
based on pilot skill and comfort with the present meteorlogical
conditions. It just so happens I am a western pilot who loves
Eastern/European weather and the contest suited my flying style. Yes
the ship helped, but I would hope some skill and judgment contributed
to the win.

Wayne - Thanks for the FAI definition of the Club Class. Geee, imagine
that... a class that might actually preserve the racing character and
value ($$$'s) of both my own Libelle (yes I have a vested interest) and
many HUNDREDS of other Libelles, LS1's, ASW15's, Jantars, etc. here in
the U.S.; AND offer the chance to engage in top-level (if you choose)
glider racing. Are the racing pilots that own the latest ships fearful
that having a true Club Class here in the US would make them re-think
why they have so much invested when there is a very competitive format
of glider racing available for much less investment? I challenge elite
US pilots who own the hot ships to come down and fly first and
second-generation glass agasint the "specialists" and see what they
think. It is more difficult, but is very rewarding flying.

Chip - I cannot agree with you more that the Sports Class Nationals
concept and format deserves to be preserved. In Europe, more U.S.-like
Sports Class Nationals are still held and are hugely popular despite
there being this new Club Class development. There should definitely be
an event where anyone can bring what they own and hang it out against
those pilots who fly newer OR older equipment. I just question if this
wide-open event is the best for team selection for a WGC in which
selectees are going to be flying a certain class of glider - possible
one in which newer pilots have never competed in.

But there is a another huge problem with using the Sports Nats as the
team selection opened up to all gliders, and that is the Task Calling.
For instance, this year at SC in Mifflin, on at least two days, the
tasks that were called either offered little hope for the Libelle,
Cirrus, and ASW-15 to get home at all, let alone compete for the day
win, OR the tasks as designed did not afford these three ships the
opportunity (given the weather, wind conditions) to put up a
handicapped speed competitive with the newer generation ships if we
played it to just to get home. For instance, at the 2005 Reg 9 contest
(where I shared task advising with 2NO) on the last day I forced myself
to conciously call a task that attempted to equalize the performance in
sports class (Air Force L23's to Mosquito/Zuni) given the winds and the
length of task. Surprise, surprise it led to a very close race in
hadicapped speeds, with the L23 winning when it had been penalized most
other days due to the winds at Hobbs.

Truly taking into account all ships in the contest when tasks are drawn
up is in the rules and is, in fact, possible. But in practice,
especially at US Sports Nationals, when a CD has 20+ ASW-27's/V2's and
then a smattering of older ships, trying to take into account the
inherent limits in performance of the older ships would probably lead
to MANY de-valued days - because on some days, a new ship can just flat
out fly much faster than a Libelle - period - end of discussion.
Imagine hte howling everyone would hear from this occurrence!

BB - To somehow equate better pilots, and therefore better selection of
team members, with more expensive and newer ships (like your -27) is
just flat out wrong. Give me a -27 and some time in it it and then
let's race. How about putting Kawa or Schwenk in one and racing them.
Flying Club Class gliders fast is a skill that must be honed. It is not
better or worse, just different, and should be re3spected with its own
class her einthe US. Sometimes, though rarely, the Europeans do get it
right!

Further, just ask Tim Welles if the racing techniques he uses in his V2
and the ones he used in Steve Willits Std Cirrus were the same. Tim's a
great pilot, but it took him some time to get comfortable with the
Cirrus. On the two days he landed out, it was VERY difficult for true
Club Class Ships to complete the tasks at all let alone for a day win
as they were called. Does that mean his skills are not worthy of team
selection, or just htat he was inthe wrong ship to show his "true"
skills.

In addition, I am all for offering the best pilots the chance to fly at
all WGC's - anything less would be counter productive to bringing home
a new US World Champion someday. But, is it more egalitarian and
therefore, I propose, better for the development of racing talent in
the USA to 1) expect pilots who can already afford the newest
generation gliders to "slum" down to afford a 10-20 K glider if they
want on the Club Class Team, or 2) for young/poor competitive pilots
who can only afford a $10-20k glider to have to cobble togeher $75-100k
for a competitive glider in Sports Class? Or thus have NO CHANCE at
showing off their skills that may, inf act be world class when flying a
club class ship?

Chris - Thanks for the words of encouragement. You are correct that
EVEN the highly tuned Cirri and other ships that regularly compete at
Club Class WGC's are affordable. They are not cheap - those days, if
there ever were any in soaring, are long gone. But they are not even
$30K with all the mods and wizz-bang instruments you can stuff into
them. There is no way that the tuned up Cirri of the Czechs have added
up to the cost of a new glider. When you get down to it, no matter how
highly tuned these ships are, they are still Libelles, Cirri, LS1's,
Std Jantars, etc. To race them and win, you have to practice racing
them. To the naysayers, they are what they are, get over it, and get in
one and see how much fun and challenging they are to race fast!

SO...My proposal is simple and I hope as fair as possible to all
interests in this debate while giving the opportunity for Club Class to
develop in the U.S.:

1) Keep the US Sports Class Nationals as the selection event for the US
Club Class Team until we can get a real feeling (by polling or
otherwise) for the potential of a stand-alone US Club Class Nationals
in some form - possibly opening up a selection event to more than the
WGC Club Class handicap range as put forwad below. We may never have a
Club Class Nationals if the following proposals bear fruit.

2) Then, accepting the US Sports Class Nationals as the selection
event;

A) Restrict Club Class Team Selection to those who are flying
"Non-current Generation Ships" as the lower limit on handicaps, and
then place a higher limit on handicaps of say 1.15 - 1.20.
B) Give the true Club Class-range Gliders a slightly better handicap
relative to those ships on the outer limits of the agreed upon handicap
range.
C) Establish Preferential entry to those flying true Club Class Gliders
of maybe 10-15 entry spots in US SPorts Nationals, in order to foster
Club Class flying and the development of the class, and
D) prohibit double seat entries from "pilot selection" to the team
(Please note the selection process refers to "pilot" selection and not
"pilots" selection) This process is meant to pick individual pilots,
not team entries. I certainly wish I had another pair of eyes and
another brain working for me when I am all alone on course in my
Libelle.

O.K. - Flame shieled to Full. So what is a "Non-Current Generation
Glider" (NCGG)? I would propose the definition be something like

1) "any glider that was not a particpant at the last 1or 2 WGC's held
in the class for which it was designed and any new design that is
focused on being competitive at the next WGC in its class", OR 2) "any
glider, not excuded by point 1), that has been flown in and placed in
the top ten of its design-class US Nationals in the past 5 years."

So ... under this defintion the NCGG's at US Sports class Nationals
that would be excluded from team selection would be ships like: ASW-27,
ASW-28, ASW-29, D2, V2, Diana I & II, Lak-17/19, LS6/8/10. Plus,
possibly, ships like the Ventus, ASW-20, Discus, that have been taken
to US Nationals in their Class (Std. or 15m), but who may have placed
well (top-10)

Roughly speaking, this would exclude any handicap less than .90-.92,
with the possible exception of ASW20's, Venti, and Disci based on
actual performances at US Nationals in Std or 15-m class, and there
should probably be an upper limit on the handicap of something on the
order of 1.15-1,20 for ease of task calling. This is a more liberal
restriction of the Club Class Handicap range the Europeans/Aussies and
South Africans use, but is still a limitation. This way we truly end up
with alomost every glider that has its own class, and enable investment
and competitive decisions based on a clear system rather than who has
the most dollars.

As to making the US Team. Each class and glider type requires its own
skill sets and talents. Those who can afford the newest and most
competitive ships, knock yourselves out, buy the ship you want, race in
your own class (Standard, 15-m, 18-m, Open, 20-m, World) and get on the
US Team in one of those classes. Those who can only afford, are stuck
in, or who actually choose to race older ships, this gives you a
defined and protected competitive environment, the Club Class, to race
competitively in more weather conditions and offers the chance to get
on the US Team as well. Give us without a class our own class!

As for US Sports Class Nationals ... keep having it in conjunction with
a Club Class Selecction, get together with the best pilots from all the
classes and see how your skills stack up- bearinging mind the inherent
limitations of handicapping and tasking a Nimbus three against a K13

Phew... Please make comments on my proposal and pass them on to the
Team Committee members.

Sincerely and Respectfully submitted,
Tim McAllister "EY"
US Team 2004 WGC CLub Class
US Representative 2005 1st World GP
US Team 2006 WGC Club Class

Tim wrote:
X3 and all:

Please let me get up on my soapbox for a second as I prepare to go off
to Club Class WGC on Saturday. I hope my comments here can spur the
development of this class here in the US so I can truly come home to a
class of my own.


Tim,

Lot's of good stuff in there. To summarize the proposal, "Include a
separate Club Class Championship within the Sports Class Nationals with
the World Team selection based on the highest placing Club Class ship."
Sounds okay to me...

A couple of comments/questions:

1. Club Class Parameters: Why not just keep it simple and set a
handicap range using the annual CH Handicaps that most closely
resembles the World Club Class list. Something like .95 to 1.1 would
be pretty close (though I'm partial to .925 as the lower limit:-) That
can be adjusted every 2 years if/when the IGC changes their list.

2. Equipment vs. Participation: Despite the fact that I agree with
your proposal, I question the base assumption that a lot of potential
competitors (by that I mean people capable of winning a Club Class
Nationals against top talent) are scared off because people show up
with their V2s and ASW-27s. Maybe I'm in the minority, since I had
no problems showing up for a Standard Class nationals and 15-Meter
nationals with my LS-4 when Discii and ASW-27s ruled the roost. If I
look around Region II (ie. my region) I'm hard-pressed to count more
than a couple of guys who could win a competitive Club Class Nationals.
I've spoken to a couple, and they have explicitly said that it's the
cost of 2 plus weeks at a contest that keeps them away, not the fact
that their ship is mildly uncompetitive. Point being, I doubt that
there's this broad underground of potential Club Class Champions
lurking in the shadows. Plus, there are a LOT of Sports Class
regionals around, and I don't see these being over-subscribed with Club
Class entries either.

3. Tasking: Frankly, someone showing up at a Sports Class Nationals
in a 1-26 shouldn't have delusions of winning. Therefore, the tasking
guidelines ought to focus on ships with a Handicap within the range of
..9 to 1.1 or thereabouts.

4. Site Selection: This is a tough one, since Mifflin is really about
my favorite place to fly. But, I wonder if Sports Class site selection
needs to be revisited with a thought toward places that are less likely
to require extended periods of flight at speeds outside the design
limits of true Club Class ships? The obvious counter-argument is that
there aren't enough hosts for Nationals as it is. But, I think it
ought to be discussed.

I'm sure there's more, but this is a good thread that deserves to be
hashed out.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)
Formerly LS4 (P3)
Formerly Grob Astir (P3)
Formerly 1-36 (JG)

Tim wrote:
X3 and all:


X3 - Thanks for the vote of confidence in considering my SC Nats win a
total "freak". I will agree that it was a contest that favored my
Libelle. However, even in these weak conditions, W3 almost caught me in
his V2 - hardly a "soft" weather ship. And there were a few other weak

Tim,

Thank you very much for taking the time to post such a thoughtful
reply, and please accept my apologies for my poorly worded post. At
the time I felt I had to proactively answer the anticipated reply of
"But look - a Libelle won the HH SC Nats. So, the entry and handicap
system as it stands is OK!". The very weak conditions, IMHO, produced
a minute opening through which you flew your Libelle with great skill
and courage, something I wish I could have done with my LS4. Alas, I
lacked both the skill AND the courage ;-).

Frank(X3)

Papa3 wrote:
Lot's of good stuff in there. To summarize the proposal, "Include a
separate Club Class Championship within the Sports Class Nationals with
the World Team selection based on the highest placing Club Class ship."
Sounds okay to me...

Hmmn, I didn't get exactly that out of Tim's post, but I like it!
IIRC, the ill-fated HH SC Nats (again my humble apologies to Tim!) was
also the venue for that year's World Class Nats, with separate scoring
and separate tasks (at least I think the tasking was separate). I
would much prefer a separate scoring system at least, so SC pilots
don't have to look on page 2 (or 3) to see how they are doing ;-).


A couple of comments/questions:

1. Club Class Parameters: Why not just keep it simple and set a
handicap range using the annual CH Handicaps that most closely
resembles the World Club Class list. Something like .95 to 1.1 would
be pretty close (though I'm partial to .925 as the lower limit:-) That
can be adjusted every 2 years if/when the IGC changes their list.

In America, the 2005 handicaps (the latest list I could find) we

Std Cirrus 1.000
LS3 0.953
LS4 0.950
ASW28 0.925
LS8/15 0.925

So, given the current handicap system, allowing 0.925 handicaps would
have the effect of negating the entire idea.

2. Equipment vs. Participation: Despite the fact that I agree with
your proposal, I question the base assumption that a lot of potential
competitors (by that I mean people capable of winning a Club Class
Nationals against top talent) are scared off because people show up
with their V2s and ASW-27s. Maybe I'm in the minority, since I had
no problems showing up for a Standard Class nationals and 15-Meter
nationals with my LS-4 when Discii and ASW-27s ruled the roost. If I
look around Region II (ie. my region) I'm hard-pressed to count more
than a couple of guys who could win a competitive Club Class Nationals.
I've spoken to a couple, and they have explicitly said that it's the
cost of 2 plus weeks at a contest that keeps them away, not the fact
that their ship is mildly uncompetitive. Point being, I doubt that
there's this broad underground of potential Club Class Champions
lurking in the shadows. Plus, there are a LOT of Sports Class
regionals around, and I don't see these being over-subscribed with Club
Class entries either.

Certainly there is no incentive to drive forever and spend $2K or so to
compete in a contest where there is no chance of winning. Who knows
how that would change if there actually was a chance. We won't know
until we try. In any case, the SSA supported a 2006 World Class
Nationals with only 9 gliders present, and I suspect I could get 9 SC
pilots to commit to a meet where they are assured there will be only
?SC gliders in a 0.95 to 1.1 or so range.