Cloud Flying

Viewed the discussion on cloud flying. I have been
cloud flying in sailplanes for over 15 yrs....IMC flying
that is. Currently I have a Nimbus 3, modified to 26
M with an EFIS. Cloud flying is legal in the USA as
long as you have a clearance in controlled airspace
and the required equipment as per the manufacture.
I recommend gyro instruments as well; furthermore,
it’s not for everyone!

It is dangerous, unless you have the required instruments
and the training and qualifications. Having a caviler
attitude by just being sucked up into a towering Cu,
is asking for trouble and you may cause a midair collision.
Understanding, no airplane pilot will b e flying through
a tower Cu....however, do not do it unless you are
qualified.

It is very enjoyable as well and exhilarating!

For the Far 61.57, that addresses to carry passengers
only. So, if you are solo, that section of the regs
does not apply.

I will be submitting a short article to soaring in
the next few weeks on the subject. I am completing
a training booklet on the subject. Also, hope to be
able to give a short talk/presentation at the 2007
convention. Would enjoy answering any questions you
may have.

Shawn

Shawn,

Thank you for this information. I've been wondering about this very
subject. I'm just curious if you have discussed this with your local
FSDO, and or any local air traffic controllers. I'm still looking for
the reg that says gliders don't have to have the required 24 month
checks on their xponder, static system, etc. Where do I find that?

Also, your efis equipment, is it approved equipment? I'm sure it's not,
say, some of that efis equipment that homebuilders are putting in their
ships. The equipment in your panel has to be approved for IFR flight
doesn't it? I know it looks and works great, but a lot, most of its'
not approved for IFR flight.

Also, when you receive your ATC clearance, how does the controller give
you an altitude? In what format?

There are a lot of questions that I need to answer about IFR flight in
gliders. I know my local Flight Standard Districto Office would have
questions for me if I didn't do it right.

I look forward to your article, and your answers.

Snoop
Shawn Knickerbocker wrote:
Viewed the discussion on cloud flying. I have been
cloud flying in sailplanes for over 15 yrs....IMC flying
that is. Currently I have a Nimbus 3, modified to 26
M with an EFIS. Cloud flying is legal in the USA as
long as you have a clearance in controlled airspace
and the required equipment as per the manufacture.
I recommend gyro instruments as well; furthermore,
it's not for everyone!

It is dangerous, unless you have the required instruments
and the training and qualifications. Having a caviler
attitude by just being sucked up into a towering Cu,
is asking for trouble and you may cause a midair collision.
Understanding, no airplane pilot will b e flying through
a tower Cu....however, do not do it unless you are
qualified.

It is very enjoyable as well and exhilarating!

For the Far 61.57, that addresses to carry passengers
only. So, if you are solo, that section of the regs
does not apply.

I will be submitting a short article to soaring in
the next few weeks on the subject. I am completing
a training booklet on the subject. Also, hope to be
able to give a short talk/presentation at the 2007
convention. Would enjoy answering any questions you
may have.

Shawn

Regarding approved instruments in gliders...

For in the US Try Reading the FAR's, I may have missed something, But I
can find no FAR that requires any instruments for unpowered aircraft(
FAR 91.205 is for powered aircraft only.)
If it is not required it certainly does not need to be approved. Type
Data sheets and/or the Manfacturer in the US may have there own
requirements.

On the other hand if you are going to fly Class A,B or C airspace then
a TSO Transponder is certainly required (Unless you have obtained a
Waiver) by FAR 91.215 along with the required inspections for it.

Brian



snoop wrote:
Shawn,

Thank you for this information. I've been wondering about this very
subject. I'm just curious if you have discussed this with your local
FSDO, and or any local air traffic controllers. I'm still looking for
the reg that says gliders don't have to have the required 24 month
checks on their xponder, static system, etc. Where do I find that?

Also, your efis equipment, is it approved equipment? I'm sure it's not,
say, some of that efis equipment that homebuilders are putting in their
ships. The equipment in your panel has to be approved for IFR flight
doesn't it? I know it looks and works great, but a lot, most of its'
not approved for IFR flight.

Also, when you receive your ATC clearance, how does the controller give
you an altitude? In what format?

There are a lot of questions that I need to answer about IFR flight in
gliders. I know my local Flight Standard Districto Office would have
questions for me if I didn't do it right.

I look forward to your article, and your answers.

Snoop

Son, we're talking IFR flight here. Try reading the first post.


Brian wrote:
Regarding approved instruments in gliders...

For in the US Try Reading the FAR's, I may have missed something, But I
can find no FAR that requires any instruments for unpowered aircraft(
FAR 91.205 is for powered aircraft only.)
If it is not required it certainly does not need to be approved. Type
Data sheets and/or the Manfacturer in the US may have there own
requirements.

On the other hand if you are going to fly Class A,B or C airspace then
a TSO Transponder is certainly required (Unless you have obtained a
Waiver) by FAR 91.215 along with the required inspections for it.

Brian



snoop wrote:
Shawn,

Thank you for this information. I've been wondering about this very
subject. I'm just curious if you have discussed this with your local
FSDO, and or any local air traffic controllers. I'm still looking for
the reg that says gliders don't have to have the required 24 month
checks on their xponder, static system, etc. Where do I find that?

Also, your efis equipment, is it approved equipment? I'm sure it's not,
say, some of that efis equipment that homebuilders are putting in their
ships. The equipment in your panel has to be approved for IFR flight
doesn't it? I know it looks and works great, but a lot, most of its'
not approved for IFR flight.

Also, when you receive your ATC clearance, how does the controller give
you an altitude? In what format?

There are a lot of questions that I need to answer about IFR flight in
gliders. I know my local Flight Standard Districto Office would have
questions for me if I didn't do it right.

I look forward to your article, and your answers.

Snoop

snoop wrote:
Son, we're talking IFR flight here. Try reading the first post.


Brian wrote:
Regarding approved instruments in gliders...

For in the US Try Reading the FAR's, I may have missed something, But I
can find no FAR that requires any instruments for unpowered aircraft(
FAR 91.205 is for powered aircraft only.)
If it is not required it certainly does not need to be approved. Type
Data sheets and/or the Manfacturer in the US may have there own
requirements.

On the other hand if you are going to fly Class A,B or C airspace then
a TSO Transponder is certainly required (Unless you have obtained a
Waiver) by FAR 91.215 along with the required inspections for it.

Brian



snoop wrote:
Shawn,

Thank you for this information. I've been wondering about this very
subject. I'm just curious if you have discussed this with your local
FSDO, and or any local air traffic controllers. I'm still looking for
the reg that says gliders don't have to have the required 24 month
checks on their xponder, static system, etc. Where do I find that?

Also, your efis equipment, is it approved equipment? I'm sure it's not,
say, some of that efis equipment that homebuilders are putting in their
ships. The equipment in your panel has to be approved for IFR flight
doesn't it? I know it looks and works great, but a lot, most of its'
not approved for IFR flight.

Also, when you receive your ATC clearance, how does the controller give
you an altitude? In what format?

There are a lot of questions that I need to answer about IFR flight in
gliders. I know my local Flight Standard Districto Office would have
questions for me if I didn't do it right.

I look forward to your article, and your answers.

Snoop

Yeah, IFR it is....I am very curious about that article, will you
include all the FAR's and AIM's for glider flight in IMC? How about
xponder check out every 24 months? How about the instrument rating? Is
one available for a glider? And yeah, how about the clearance? Do you
get a pop-up clearance or , since you are not flying from controlled
airport simply have a void time? I would like to be educated in all of
those aspects.

Thanks,

Jacek
Washington State

Good questions, jacekkobiesa.

Shawn, I thought of another IFR glider question. So you tow up, the
ceiling is around 2500agl, there's lift, you get your clearance, climb
into the clouds, fly around on whatever kind of clearance it is you
get, and the ceiling drops down to say, still VFR, but it drops to
1000'AGL. How does an IFR glider make an approach, or even get down to
minimum vectoring altitude? I'm curious what the the local controllers,
who are protecting their airspace, what pages in the TERPS Manual do
they flip to? Curious.

C'mon you USA IFR glider pilots, jump in here. I know they cloud fly
elsewhere in the world, but I think we'd all like to hear how to do it
here at home.

snoop


wrote:
snoop wrote:
Son, we're talking IFR flight here. Try reading the first post.


Brian wrote:
Regarding approved instruments in gliders...

For in the US Try Reading the FAR's, I may have missed something, But I
can find no FAR that requires any instruments for unpowered aircraft(
FAR 91.205 is for powered aircraft only.)
If it is not required it certainly does not need to be approved. Type
Data sheets and/or the Manfacturer in the US may have there own
requirements.

On the other hand if you are going to fly Class A,B or C airspace then
a TSO Transponder is certainly required (Unless you have obtained a
Waiver) by FAR 91.215 along with the required inspections for it.

Brian



snoop wrote:
Shawn,

Thank you for this information. I've been wondering about this very
subject. I'm just curious if you have discussed this with your local
FSDO, and or any local air traffic controllers. I'm still looking for
the reg that says gliders don't have to have the required 24 month
checks on their xponder, static system, etc. Where do I find that?

Also, your efis equipment, is it approved equipment? I'm sure it's not,
say, some of that efis equipment that homebuilders are putting in their
ships. The equipment in your panel has to be approved for IFR flight
doesn't it? I know it looks and works great, but a lot, most of its'
not approved for IFR flight.

Also, when you receive your ATC clearance, how does the controller give
you an altitude? In what format?

There are a lot of questions that I need to answer about IFR flight in
gliders. I know my local Flight Standard Districto Office would have
questions for me if I didn't do it right.

I look forward to your article, and your answers.

Snoop

Yeah, IFR it is....I am very curious about that article, will you
include all the FAR's and AIM's for glider flight in IMC? How about
xponder check out every 24 months? How about the instrument rating? Is
one available for a glider? And yeah, how about the clearance? Do you
get a pop-up clearance or , since you are not flying from controlled
airport simply have a void time? I would like to be educated in all of
those aspects.

Thanks,

Jacek
Washington State

snoop wrote:

Shawn, I thought of another IFR glider question. So you tow up, the
ceiling is around 2500agl, there's lift, you get your clearance, climb
into the clouds, fly around on whatever kind of clearance it is you
get, and the ceiling drops down to say, still VFR, but it drops to
1000'AGL. How does an IFR glider make an approach, or even get down to
minimum vectoring altitude? I'm curious what the the local controllers,
who are protecting their airspace, what pages in the TERPS Manual do
they flip to? Curious.


What do they do when flying in wave out west with the threat of the
fain(sp?) gap closing? You stay ahead of the weather. Same thing you do
in any aircraft, on every flight. There's always the chance the
destination can go below your minimums, in a 1-26 or in a 757. Don't
make it look harder than it is.

Anybody that has a personal problem with flying in clouds shouldn't do
it. It can be done safely, under limited circumstances, and our effort
ought to be to show people how to do it safely and legally, not to scare
them away.


Jack

Sorry Jack but your dead wrong. There are flesh and bone reasons why we
should teach people why we don't penetrate clouds, in US
gliders/airspace. Actually, the legal reasons are what the thread here
is searching for.

Consider this Jack. You just got called in by the FAA for IFR glider
flying here in the USA. Let's be optimistic and say nobody ran into you
and you didn't kill anybody. But now our sport is on the carpet because
you broke the law, and your flying days are done due to FAA certificate
action.
Nice, now what questions would you be re asking yourself, and what
lame exscuses would you try to present to the inspectors, and the
unlimited expert witnesses sitting in the room.. There aren't any. Buy
a nice ASA FAR/AIM book and catch up on your reading.

With regard to wave flying, yes we get a window, and stay out of the
clouds and ahead of the weather. I've flown the wave window at Marfa,
where we had a window, a chunk of airspace, but still not a clearance
into IFR conditions. The topic here is getting a clearance and going
into solid IFR. Jack I'm open for enlightenment on how to legally do
it.

Your statement " it can be done safely under limited circumstances"
won't hold up when your dancin' for the FAA.

Thanks for your input,

Snoop


58y wrote:
snoop wrote:

Shawn, I thought of another IFR glider question. So you tow up, the
ceiling is around 2500agl, there's lift, you get your clearance, climb
into the clouds, fly around on whatever kind of clearance it is you
get, and the ceiling drops down to say, still VFR, but it drops to
1000'AGL. How does an IFR glider make an approach, or even get down to
minimum vectoring altitude? I'm curious what the the local controllers,
who are protecting their airspace, what pages in the TERPS Manual do
they flip to? Curious.


What do they do when flying in wave out west with the threat of the
fain(sp?) gap closing? You stay ahead of the weather. Same thing you do
in any aircraft, on every flight. There's always the chance the
destination can go below your minimums, in a 1-26 or in a 757. Don't
make it look harder than it is.

Anybody that has a personal problem with flying in clouds shouldn't do
it. It can be done safely, under limited circumstances, and our effort
ought to be to show people how to do it safely and legally, not to scare
them away.


Jack

58y wrote:
snoop wrote:

Shawn, I thought of another IFR glider question. So you tow up, the
ceiling is around 2500agl, there's lift, you get your clearance, climb
into the clouds, fly around on whatever kind of clearance it is you
get, and the ceiling drops down to say, still VFR, but it drops to
1000'AGL. How does an IFR glider make an approach, or even get down to
minimum vectoring altitude? I'm curious what the the local controllers,
who are protecting their airspace, what pages in the TERPS Manual do
they flip to? Curious.


What do they do when flying in wave out west with the threat of the
fain(sp?) gap closing? You stay ahead of the weather. Same thing you do
in any aircraft, on every flight. There's always the chance the
destination can go below your minimums, in a 1-26 or in a 757. Don't
make it look harder than it is.

Anybody that has a personal problem with flying in clouds shouldn't do
it. It can be done safely, under limited circumstances, and our effort
ought to be to show people how to do it safely and legally, not to scare
them away.


Jack

Jack,

No matter what you fly in general aviation accessible to an average
pilot is difficult to fly in a cloud(s). The only thing pilots here,
"out west" flying wave are using is some sort of attitude indicator.
And don't mix any glider with a 757, there is no comparison. Period.
And when I go wave flying (I don't have any IFR instruments in my
glider) I pay very close attention to the foehn gap. And if you get
trap on top you have very unpleasant descent through a cloud(s); how
about the terrain below you? what other navigation means do you use to
know your position to nearest nav-aids or the ground? I would not take
any chances flying here, "out west" with flight into IMC. And don't
mistake occasional flight through an outer edge of a cloud, which will
last a few seconds with a flight in solid cloud. And if you would like
come here and visit with us, I'll take you for a wave flight which more
than likely will change your outlook on flying in limited visibility
and with a terrain of about 14,000 ft. around you. It is not scary, it
is a fact.

So, having said that, as a power, glider, instructor, etc. pilot, if my
knowledge is limited I would like to update that. If I don't know
something I would like to learn. So, I am waiting for explanation(s) as
well as I am looking forward to the publication mentioned by the
original poster.

Jacek
Washington State

I'd love to take a wave flight out in WA. with you. Your correct we're
not talking about the occasional zip through a wisp.

But let's be up front here, you mentioned the 757, not me, and yes this
thread is anxiously waiting to hear from it's author on the subject of
IFR glider flying with a clearance, Shawn.



wrote:
58y wrote:
snoop wrote:

Shawn, I thought of another IFR glider question. So you tow up, the
ceiling is around 2500agl, there's lift, you get your clearance, climb
into the clouds, fly around on whatever kind of clearance it is you
get, and the ceiling drops down to say, still VFR, but it drops to
1000'AGL. How does an IFR glider make an approach, or even get down to
minimum vectoring altitude? I'm curious what the the local controllers,
who are protecting their airspace, what pages in the TERPS Manual do
they flip to? Curious.


What do they do when flying in wave out west with the threat of the
fain(sp?) gap closing? You stay ahead of the weather. Same thing you do
in any aircraft, on every flight. There's always the chance the
destination can go below your minimums, in a 1-26 or in a 757. Don't
make it look harder than it is.

Anybody that has a personal problem with flying in clouds shouldn't do
it. It can be done safely, under limited circumstances, and our effort
ought to be to show people how to do it safely and legally, not to scare
them away.


Jack

Jack,

No matter what you fly in general aviation accessible to an average
pilot is difficult to fly in a cloud(s). The only thing pilots here,
"out west" flying wave are using is some sort of attitude indicator.
And don't mix any glider with a 757, there is no comparison. Period.
And when I go wave flying (I don't have any IFR instruments in my
glider) I pay very close attention to the foehn gap. And if you get
trap on top you have very unpleasant descent through a cloud(s); how
about the terrain below you? what other navigation means do you use to
know your position to nearest nav-aids or the ground? I would not take
any chances flying here, "out west" with flight into IMC. And don't
mistake occasional flight through an outer edge of a cloud, which will
last a few seconds with a flight in solid cloud. And if you would like
come here and visit with us, I'll take you for a wave flight which more
than likely will change your outlook on flying in limited visibility
and with a terrain of about 14,000 ft. around you. It is not scary, it
is a fact.

So, having said that, as a power, glider, instructor, etc. pilot, if my
knowledge is limited I would like to update that. If I don't know
something I would like to learn. So, I am waiting for explanation(s) as
well as I am looking forward to the publication mentioned by the
original poster.

Jacek
Washington State