Class A airspace

Guess we will never know...

Airspace in question is 500-17999 07:15 to 23:30 (local) 7 days a week
including holidays.


Ramy Yanetz wrote:
Maybe the airspace was cold? If so, the pilot should add a comment about it.

Ramy

wrote in message
ups.com...
Forget Class A, how about the guy that infringes on restricted airspace
and STILL submits the flight on OLC in order to win a major contest!!

Pressure differences etc can be explained but ploughing through
restricted airspace in this time of GPS is not excusable.

Al


Stewart Kissel wrote:
Before data loggers and the OLC...pilots had no record
of how high they flew other then a barograph, and no
doubt Class A was getting busted. What irks me is
not someone close to Class A...but those that deliberatley
violate and then post their flights. This behaviour
is bad for our sport on a couple of levels...so I whole-heartedly
support Doug and the OLC bunch on keeping an eye on
it. We are much to small a group to be nothing but
dust-in-the-wind if a glider brings down an airliner.
An those flying in busy airspace are to be commended
for using transponders...

Within reason I think a little self-policing can go
a long way, because we as pilots have a much better
idea of what is going on then the FAA(for the most
part). Flame shield activated.
But the pilot community is responsible for reinforcement,
and rewarding
pilots who break the rules gives negative reinforcement.
Aside from the
regulatory issues, it is also unsportsmanlike conduct.
So, we will
remove OLC flight claims that show ovbious violation
of Class-A
airspace without a reasonable explanation. This is
not Orwell's 'Big
Brother' it's more like Big Brothers and Big Sisters.

I'm with you, Doug, but what is 'obvious'? Sounds like
a sticky little
detail. Let us know when the SSA/OLC bunch get it figured
out, will you?


Jack

Yes he should.

Al

Ramy Yanetz wrote:
Maybe the airspace was cold? If so, the pilot should add a comment about it.

Ramy

wrote in message
ups.com...
Forget Class A, how about the guy that infringes on restricted airspace
and STILL submits the flight on OLC in order to win a major contest!!

Pressure differences etc can be explained but ploughing through
restricted airspace in this time of GPS is not excusable.

Al


Stewart Kissel wrote:
Before data loggers and the OLC...pilots had no record
of how high they flew other then a barograph, and no
doubt Class A was getting busted. What irks me is
not someone close to Class A...but those that deliberatley
violate and then post their flights. This behaviour
is bad for our sport on a couple of levels...so I whole-heartedly
support Doug and the OLC bunch on keeping an eye on
it. We are much to small a group to be nothing but
dust-in-the-wind if a glider brings down an airliner.
An those flying in busy airspace are to be commended
for using transponders...

Within reason I think a little self-policing can go
a long way, because we as pilots have a much better
idea of what is going on then the FAA(for the most
part). Flame shield activated.
But the pilot community is responsible for reinforcement,
and rewarding
pilots who break the rules gives negative reinforcement.
Aside from the
regulatory issues, it is also unsportsmanlike conduct.
So, we will
remove OLC flight claims that show ovbious violation
of Class-A
airspace without a reasonable explanation. This is
not Orwell's 'Big
Brother' it's more like Big Brothers and Big Sisters.

I'm with you, Doug, but what is 'obvious'? Sounds like
a sticky little
detail. Let us know when the SSA/OLC bunch get it figured
out, will you?


Jack

wrote:
Guess we will never know...

Airspace in question is 500-17999 07:15 to 23:30 (local) 7 days a week
including holidays.

If you mean R4816S, I've received permission several times to enter on
weekends, and at least once on a weekday. The Fallon folks pretty much
fly Monday through Friday only. What contest?

NOW, BOYS!

Perhaps class A and R has nothing to do with gliders losing use of
airspace. See posts about the Minden midair. Nobody badly hurt, that's
fantastic!

Jim

Yes, and fortunately the accident apparently did not happen in Class-A
airspace. If something like this did happen in Class-A, the
repurcussions could be wide ranging. Even if the glider pilot thinks
he's at 17,999' the FDR and ATC tapes are going to be given more
weight. So this points out the need to leave some buffer altitude as
well. You are not goiing to get the benefit of the doubt.

JS wrote:
NOW, BOYS!

Perhaps class A and R has nothing to do with gliders losing use of
airspace. See posts about the Minden midair. Nobody badly hurt, that's
fantastic!

Jim

Doug Haluza wrote:
Yes, and fortunately the accident apparently did not happen in Class-A
airspace. If something like this did happen in Class-A, the
repurcussions could be wide ranging. Even if the glider pilot thinks
he's at 17,999' the FDR and ATC tapes are going to be given more
weight. So this points out the need to leave some buffer altitude as
well. You are not goiing to get the benefit of the doubt.

I disagree about the repercussion issue. If a glider was involved in a
midair in Class A airspace without appropriate clearance, then the pilot
is in clear violation of the FARs, subject to enforcement action
(assuming he survives), and there is no need for further rule making.

It is precisely this sort of situation, a conflict between aircraft
legally present in the same airspace, that sometimes leads to
undesirable (from our perspective) changes in airspace classification
and rules. What is truly fortunate was that it was not an airliner...

Marc

Marc Ramsey wrote:

It is precisely this sort of situation, a conflict between aircraft
legally present in the same airspace, that sometimes leads to
undesirable (from our perspective) changes in airspace classification
and rules. What is truly fortunate was that it was not an airliner...

A couple of years ago, there was a midair over the French alps (possibly
the best known (as well as the best) glider area in Europe), between an
airliner which approached Lyon (France) and a glider. (I forgot further
details.) Luckily, both aircraft landed safely. It was clearly the
airliners fault, as the collision occured in airspace class E and the
glider had the right of way. Problem was, the airliner pilots thought
they were in class D, because the Jeppesen map which they used was wrong.

Anyway, before this accident, all airspace over the French alps was
class E up to FL195, i.e. freely usable by everyone without a clearance.
As a consequence of this accident, it's no more.

Stefan

Have you read the Notam's on GPS accuracy. It is entirely possible the
pilot was clear of the Restricted airspace. I have observed GPS to be
off by as much as 5 miles when these notams are in effect. Very
disconcerting when your GPS says you are at the airport and all you can
see is sage brush.

Brian

wrote:
Forget Class A, how about the guy that infringes on restricted airspace
and STILL submits the flight on OLC in order to win a major contest!!

Pressure differences etc can be explained but ploughing through
restricted airspace in this time of GPS is not excusable.

Al


Stewart Kissel wrote:
Before data loggers and the OLC...pilots had no record
of how high they flew other then a barograph, and no
doubt Class A was getting busted. What irks me is
not someone close to Class A...but those that deliberatley
violate and then post their flights. This behaviour
is bad for our sport on a couple of levels...so I whole-heartedly
support Doug and the OLC bunch on keeping an eye on
it. We are much to small a group to be nothing but
dust-in-the-wind if a glider brings down an airliner.
An those flying in busy airspace are to be commended
for using transponders...

Within reason I think a little self-policing can go
a long way, because we as pilots have a much better
idea of what is going on then the FAA(for the most
part). Flame shield activated.
But the pilot community is responsible for reinforcement,
and rewarding
pilots who break the rules gives negative reinforcement.
Aside from the
regulatory issues, it is also unsportsmanlike conduct.
So, we will
remove OLC flight claims that show ovbious violation
of Class-A
airspace without a reasonable explanation. This is
not Orwell's 'Big
Brother' it's more like Big Brothers and Big Sisters.

I'm with you, Doug, but what is 'obvious'? Sounds like
a sticky little
detail. Let us know when the SSA/OLC bunch get it figured
out, will you?


Jack

The date in question was not subject to GPS testing.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/gpsno...terference.pdf

Al

Brian wrote:
Have you read the Notam's on GPS accuracy. It is entirely possible the
pilot was clear of the Restricted airspace. I have observed GPS to be
off by as much as 5 miles when these notams are in effect. Very
disconcerting when your GPS says you are at the airport and all you can
see is sage brush.

Brian

wrote:
Forget Class A, how about the guy that infringes on restricted airspace
and STILL submits the flight on OLC in order to win a major contest!!

Pressure differences etc can be explained but ploughing through
restricted airspace in this time of GPS is not excusable.

Al


Stewart Kissel wrote:
Before data loggers and the OLC...pilots had no record
of how high they flew other then a barograph, and no
doubt Class A was getting busted. What irks me is
not someone close to Class A...but those that deliberatley
violate and then post their flights. This behaviour
is bad for our sport on a couple of levels...so I whole-heartedly
support Doug and the OLC bunch on keeping an eye on
it. We are much to small a group to be nothing but
dust-in-the-wind if a glider brings down an airliner.
An those flying in busy airspace are to be commended
for using transponders...

Within reason I think a little self-policing can go
a long way, because we as pilots have a much better
idea of what is going on then the FAA(for the most
part). Flame shield activated.
But the pilot community is responsible for reinforcement,
and rewarding
pilots who break the rules gives negative reinforcement.
Aside from the
regulatory issues, it is also unsportsmanlike conduct.
So, we will
remove OLC flight claims that show ovbious violation
of Class-A
airspace without a reasonable explanation. This is
not Orwell's 'Big
Brother' it's more like Big Brothers and Big Sisters.

I'm with you, Doug, but what is 'obvious'? Sounds like
a sticky little
detail. Let us know when the SSA/OLC bunch get it figured
out, will you?


Jack

The restriction of the airspace in the French Alps has nothing to do with
this accident which happened over the Massif Central (an A319 inbound
Montpellier hitting a Grob Twin III).

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Marc Ramsey wrote:

It is precisely this sort of situation, a conflict between aircraft
legally present in the same airspace, that sometimes leads to undesirable
(from our perspective) changes in airspace classification and rules.
What is truly fortunate was that it was not an airliner...

A couple of years ago, there was a midair over the French alps (possibly
the best known (as well as the best) glider area in Europe), between an
airliner which approached Lyon (France) and a glider. (I forgot further
details.) Luckily, both aircraft landed safely. It was clearly the
airliners fault, as the collision occured in airspace class E and the
glider had the right of way. Problem was, the airliner pilots thought they
were in class D, because the Jeppesen map which they used was wrong.

Anyway, before this accident, all airspace over the French alps was class
E up to FL195, i.e. freely usable by everyone without a clearance. As a
consequence of this accident, it's no more.

Stefan