First Glider Purchase

Hello Pundits,

Now that I am retired I have decided to live a little before its to late....no more I will do X Y and Z NEXT YEAR. I first went solo in a glider at the Midland Gliding club in 1976 and then solo on power the same year. Power flying quickly lost its attraction and I didnt complete my licence but my first love was always gliding .
I have not done any gliding for a number of years and intend buying my first glider in the next few months....the question is which one....and whether or not to go for outright ownership or a syndicate machine.

My shortlist is now as follows: Max budget £35K

FIRST CHOICE ASW22 I am told that the best version is the BL. I would welcome any other opinions as to whether this is true or not !! all though the thought of a field landing in something with this much span is off putting £10k for a fifth share in a syndicate that only flew 80 hours last year is attractive.
I should add that I personally DONT WANT TO FLY AT WEEKENDS. so I am quite marketable myself.
I of course accept that I will not be a good enough pilot to jump straight into something with an LD of 60/1 and a 22/24 Metre span after a weekends refresher at Church Stretton.
The plan would be to do an intensive 2 week tailor made course in the UK ( SUGGESTIONS AS TO EXACTLY WHERE ARE ALSO WELCOME) and then have six weeks.... or more if advised... at somewhere like Fuentemilanos in Spain where i understand I might get 30 hours flying EVERY week if I book in May/June next year !!
It might be that even this level of intensive instruction and practice wouldnt be enough and I hope that at 58 years old I2 am mature enough to get into an ASW22 when I am ready as opposed to when I am the only one that thinks I am ready.

SECOND CHOICE

A quarter share in a STEMME ST V10

Probably the easiest option with all the advantages of long distance " go look and see" soaring, self launching independance, virtually guaranteed SAFE engine restarts and near certain back to base return trips home at the end of a day thats as long as you want it to be...only disadvantage iffy ground handling.

THIRD CHOICE

A LAK 12

For outright ownership...lots of bang for the buck ! cheap to buy, very strong a great long distance tourer although not a competition machine ; the main disadvantage appears to be that the single piece wings weigh in at 240llbs each and the trailer is as long as a bowling alley.
Despite being cheap the preparation to fly it would follow the same plan as the ASW22, two weeks in England and 4/6 weeks in Spain.

FOURTH CHOICE

ASW 20L
For outright ownership.
this would keep everything nice and simple....which is probably why its the last on my list.

Well you will all be pleased to know that I have come to the end of my first post...any helpfull opinions would be much appreciated.

Regards brian d

brian d wrote:
Hello Pundits,

Now that I am retired I have decided to live a little before its to
late....no more I will do X Y and Z NEXT YEAR. I first went solo in a
glider at the Midland Gliding club in 1976 and then solo on power the
same year. Power flying quickly lost its attraction and I didnt
complete my licence but my first love was always gliding .
I have not done any gliding for a number of years and intend buying my
first glider in the next few months....the question is which one....and
whether or not to go for outright ownership or a syndicate machine.

My shortlist is now as follows: Max budget £35K

FIRST CHOICE ASW22 I am told that the best version is the BL. I
would welcome any other opinions as to whether this is true or not !!
all though the thought of a field landing in something with this much
span is off putting £10k for a fifth share in a syndicate that only
flew 80 hours last year is attractive.
I should add that I personally DONT WANT TO FLY AT WEEKENDS. so I am
quite marketable myself.
I of course accept that I will not be a good enough pilot to jump
straight into something with an LD of 60/1 and a 22/24 Metre span after
a weekends refresher at Church Stretton.
The plan would be to do an intensive 2 week tailor made course in the
UK ( SUGGESTIONS AS TO EXACTLY WHERE ARE ALSO WELCOME) and then have
six weeks.... or more if advised... at somewhere like Fuentemilanos in
Spain where i understand I might get 30 hours flying EVERY week if I
book in May/June next year !!
It might be that even this level of intensive instruction and practice
wouldnt be enough and I hope that at 58 years old I2 am mature enough
to get into an ASW22 when I am ready as opposed to when I am the only
one that thinks I am ready.

SECOND CHOICE

A quarter share in a STEMME ST V10

Probably the easiest option with all the advantages of long distance "
go look and see" soaring, self launching independance, virtually
guaranteed SAFE engine restarts and near certain back to base return
trips home at the end of a day thats as long as you want it to
be...only disadvantage iffy ground handling.

THIRD CHOICE

A LAK 12

For outright ownership...lots of bang for the buck ! cheap to buy, very
strong a great long distance tourer although not a competition machine ;
the main disadvantage appears to be that the single piece wings weigh in
at 240llbs each and the trailer is as long as a bowling alley.
Despite being cheap the preparation to fly it would follow the same
plan as the ASW22, two weeks in England and 4/6 weeks in Spain.

FOURTH CHOICE

ASW 20L
For outright ownership.
this would keep everything nice and simple....which is probably why its
the last on my list.

Well you will all be pleased to know that I have come to the end of my
first post...any helpfull opinions would be much appreciated.

Regards brian d




--
brian d
Assuming you have not much more experience in gliders than power, pick
a club with a Janus C or better twin. Take about a dozen instructional
flights. Then announce your plans to the CFI and see if you'll be
allowed to fly your choices at that site any time soon. Also check
with your potential insurers.

IMVHO, if you want to fly big wings, get an Open Cirrus (German, not
VTC) and enjoy yourself for 2-3 years before moving up.

If you have 500 hours P1, press on.

Frank Whiteley

I should start by saying that I've never flown an ASW22, a Stemme, a
Lak12 or an ASW20, so this is from talking to more experienced pilots
and thinking about my own experience. I've been flying gliders for 10
years and have several hundred hours including Gold distance. For the
last 3 years I've been flying an Open Cirrus.

1. From what I've heard the ASW22 and the LAK are fairly challenging to
fly - not in the upper air, but to some extent on launching and
definitely on landing. Those very big wings require you to be seriously
on the ball. I'd be happy flying one now, with appropriate briefing, but
a few years ago I think either might have been beyond my skills. Same
goes for the Stemme.

2. The ASW20 is, I'm told, great to fly and, once you've mastered use of
flaps, not difficult. However, not a first solo glider, as it's slippery
and complicated enough to get you into trouble faster than your early
skils can cope. I'd think you'd want at least a year solo in single
seaters before you moved into a 20, but ask those who actually fly them
for the real answer.

Frank Whiteley suggests an Open Cirrus, so I thought I could at least
give you my comments from actual experience he

a. Derek Piggott describes it as suitable for a first solo machine, and
I'd agree for a pilot who's pretty sharp and has a few hours in a club
single seater like an Astir. Handling is good for its age and span, and
I can't think of any real vices. Airbrakes are K6 power, rather than
K21, and you must be able to control your speed on the approach or
you'll float forever. Tailchute can be taped up to start with, and is
quite easy to use once you've practiced with it.

b. However, this is a gentleman's glider for easing around the sky. In
most UK condititions you go everywhere between 50kt and 60kt, usually at
the lower end of that range. If you want to travel long distances in a
steady, calm manner, it's excellent. If you want to hurtle around at
thrilling speeds, don't buy an Open Cirrus. If you want to do a 300k
when the thermals are only averaging 2kt, this glider will take you round.

c. The wings are definitely heavy because S-H didn't know in 1967 how
strong glass needed to be. I believe the LBA failed to break an Open
Cirrus wing at 15g. This is easy to cope with using home made rigging
aids - I've nearly finished setting mine up for one-man rig at a cost of
about £100 (plus spilt blood, etc.). The wings are a couple of metres
longer than the fuselage, so there's space in the trailer for as much
rigging gear as anyone could want.

You could get one of these for around the £10k mark, and if you don't
want to fly at weekends syndicate it to halve the cost.

Given your budget, have you considered a share in an LS8-18? Again, not
flown my me but I'm told they have nice handling, are good in weak
conditions and have a wide range of working speeds for the strong days
(if any in the UK). I see two for sale on gliderpilot.net, both in the
low £40k range.

brian d wrote:
Hello Pundits,

Now that I am retired I have decided to live a little before its to
late....no more I will do X Y and Z NEXT YEAR. I first went solo in a
glider at the Midland Gliding club in 1976 and then solo on power the
same year. Power flying quickly lost its attraction and I didnt
complete my licence but my first love was always gliding .
I have not done any gliding for a number of years and intend buying my
first glider in the next few months....the question is which one....and
whether or not to go for outright ownership or a syndicate machine.

My shortlist is now as follows: Max budget £35K

FIRST CHOICE ASW22 I am told that the best version is the BL. I
would welcome any other opinions as to whether this is true or not !!
all though the thought of a field landing in something with this much
span is off putting £10k for a fifth share in a syndicate that only
flew 80 hours last year is attractive.
I should add that I personally DONT WANT TO FLY AT WEEKENDS. so I am
quite marketable myself.
I of course accept that I will not be a good enough pilot to jump
straight into something with an LD of 60/1 and a 22/24 Metre span after
a weekends refresher at Church Stretton.
The plan would be to do an intensive 2 week tailor made course in the
UK ( SUGGESTIONS AS TO EXACTLY WHERE ARE ALSO WELCOME) and then have
six weeks.... or more if advised... at somewhere like Fuentemilanos in
Spain where i understand I might get 30 hours flying EVERY week if I
book in May/June next year !!
It might be that even this level of intensive instruction and practice
wouldnt be enough and I hope that at 58 years old I2 am mature enough
to get into an ASW22 when I am ready as opposed to when I am the only
one that thinks I am ready.

SECOND CHOICE

A quarter share in a STEMME ST V10

Probably the easiest option with all the advantages of long distance "
go look and see" soaring, self launching independance, virtually
guaranteed SAFE engine restarts and near certain back to base return
trips home at the end of a day thats as long as you want it to
be...only disadvantage iffy ground handling.

THIRD CHOICE

A LAK 12

For outright ownership...lots of bang for the buck ! cheap to buy, very
strong a great long distance tourer although not a competition machine ;
the main disadvantage appears to be that the single piece wings weigh in
at 240llbs each and the trailer is as long as a bowling alley.
Despite being cheap the preparation to fly it would follow the same
plan as the ASW22, two weeks in England and 4/6 weeks in Spain.

FOURTH CHOICE

ASW 20L
For outright ownership.
this would keep everything nice and simple....which is probably why its
the last on my list.

Well you will all be pleased to know that I have come to the end of my
first post...any helpfull opinions would be much appreciated.

Regards brian d

Frank Whiteley wrote:
Assuming you have not much more experience in gliders than power, pick
a club with a Janus C or better twin. Take about a dozen instructional
flights. Then announce your plans to the CFI and see if you'll be
allowed to fly your choices at that site any time soon. Also check
with your potential insurers.

Good advice! I think the first and most important choice to make is the
club you decide to join. Use the BGA's website to find local clubs and
go visit them, then pick the one you feel most comfortable with and join
it. I started as an ab initio when I was 54 and did exactly that. It
worked for me.

I'd suggest that you get solo, convert to a club single seater, get your
Bronze Cross Country qualification and Silver C and then and only then
get a ride in a big wing (ASH-25 or Nimbus 3 or 4) before deciding what
to buy. I currently have 350 hours but only had my first big wing rides
this season - they are *very* different to fly. You may find you prefer
the responsiveness of a 15m glider to the more stately flying style of a
big wing.

As Frank says, talk to your CFI and the club pundits about types of
glider before making a decision: its not a good idea to pick a type that
your CFI has good reason to dislike. Ease of rigging and of making field
landings can be as important as sheer performance.

IMVHO, if you want to fly big wings, get an Open Cirrus (German, not
VTC) and enjoy yourself for 2-3 years before moving up.

....and also consider the convertible 15/16m or more recent 15/18m
gliders. They are generally easier to rig and derig than the big stuff:
at my club the 15/18 ships live in their trailers while the ASH-25s,
Nimbus 3 and DuoDiscii have T-hangars. I think there's a small hint
there....


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Well, I don't know about the pundit part, but.....

Hi Brian,

I have been flying gliders for 23 years and have owned 4 gliders. They
include (in order of ownership):

Astir CS
ASW 17
ASW 22
Ventus C

My advice to you would be to buy the most modern glider that you can
afford. Unless you will be storing the glider assembled in a hanger,
insist on automatic control connections. When I had the 22, I assembled
it every time I flew as a hanger was not available. That is 12 control
connections that have to be made perfectly and pinned every time.
Believe me, going from 12 control connections to zero is a life changing
experience. The gliders in the 18 meter class achieve the performance
of the older open class ships but are so much easier to deal with. I
wouldn't let flaps be a barrier. With a few dual flights, they become a
non-issue. If you are going to be flying weekdays, you should be able
to find a partnership in a Ventus C (much nicer flying than the earlier
A or B models), LS8-18, DG-800, ASW 24, ASW 27, LAK 17 or similar ships.
These ships should come with a good clamshell trailer. That also makes a
huge difference(especially as we age). Finally, I have flown in a
Stemme and I must say that is probably more complexity than you want to
deal with. Preflight takes about 45 minutes. I used to have a Piper
Turbo Lance, and the Stemme is way more complex than that.

Good Luck,

Bob



brian d wrote:
Hello Pundits,

Now that I am retired I have decided to live a little before its to
late....no more I will do X Y and Z NEXT YEAR. I first went solo in a
glider at the Midland Gliding club in 1976 and then solo on power the
same year. Power flying quickly lost its attraction and I didnt
complete my licence but my first love was always gliding .
I have not done any gliding for a number of years and intend buying my
first glider in the next few months....the question is which one....and
whether or not to go for outright ownership or a syndicate machine.

My shortlist is now as follows: Max budget £35K

FIRST CHOICE ASW22 I am told that the best version is the BL. I
would welcome any other opinions as to whether this is true or not !!
all though the thought of a field landing in something with this much
span is off putting £10k for a fifth share in a syndicate that only
flew 80 hours last year is attractive.
I should add that I personally DONT WANT TO FLY AT WEEKENDS. so I am
quite marketable myself.
I of course accept that I will not be a good enough pilot to jump
straight into something with an LD of 60/1 and a 22/24 Metre span after
a weekends refresher at Church Stretton.
The plan would be to do an intensive 2 week tailor made course in the
UK ( SUGGESTIONS AS TO EXACTLY WHERE ARE ALSO WELCOME) and then have
six weeks.... or more if advised... at somewhere like Fuentemilanos in
Spain where i understand I might get 30 hours flying EVERY week if I
book in May/June next year !!
It might be that even this level of intensive instruction and practice
wouldnt be enough and I hope that at 58 years old I2 am mature enough
to get into an ASW22 when I am ready as opposed to when I am the only
one that thinks I am ready.

SECOND CHOICE

A quarter share in a STEMME ST V10

Probably the easiest option with all the advantages of long distance "
go look and see" soaring, self launching independance, virtually
guaranteed SAFE engine restarts and near certain back to base return
trips home at the end of a day thats as long as you want it to
be...only disadvantage iffy ground handling.

THIRD CHOICE

A LAK 12

For outright ownership...lots of bang for the buck ! cheap to buy, very
strong a great long distance tourer although not a competition machine ;
the main disadvantage appears to be that the single piece wings weigh in
at 240llbs each and the trailer is as long as a bowling alley.
Despite being cheap the preparation to fly it would follow the same
plan as the ASW22, two weeks in England and 4/6 weeks in Spain.

FOURTH CHOICE

ASW 20L
For outright ownership.
this would keep everything nice and simple....which is probably why its
the last on my list.

Well you will all be pleased to know that I have come to the end of my
first post...any helpfull opinions would be much appreciated.

Regards brian d

Chris Reed wrote:

Given your budget, have you considered a share in an LS8-18? Again, not
flown my me but I'm told they have nice handling, are good in weak
conditions and have a wide range of working speeds for the strong days
(if any in the UK). I see two for sale on gliderpilot.net, both in the
low £40k range.


I'd second this line of thinking. As a CFI, I've had any number of
guys show up for a "flight review" with a private glider rating that
hasn't been exercised in a bunch of years. In almost all cases, it
was as if the person was starting from scratch. I can go look at my
records, but I would bet that the average person has probably taken 20
flights (aero tow) to get signed off. One guy took nearly 30.

Point being, you should treat this almost as if you were an ab initio
student. In that case, I'd be looking at a year of flying club
equipment (assuming you can fly fairly frequently) before even thinking
about a glider purchase. After that, I would focus on something with
gentle handling characteristics, excellent landing capabilities (as you
will be landing in some fields), and performance relevant to your
goals.

As an owner of an LS8-18, I have to say that I'm partial to this ship.
If you formed a two-person syndicate, this would esily fit your budget.
Also, having previously owned an LS4, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend
one of those if you are intent on being a sole owner. I'd save the
big wingers for a little later.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)

I would not go for a Lak 12 based at Long Mynd. Its airbrakes are much
poorer than most gliders in my experience, needing really good approach
control and a large landing area - the fields around Long Mynd are
mostly too small. It is also heavy and time-consuming to rig unless
you have really well-sorted-out rigging aids (which mine were not).

My Lak 17 was fine at the Long Mynd and OK for medium field sizes. One
person rigging is possible with factory supplied kit, or your own from
elsewhere, but two people makes it quicker and easier. I would
personally look at the turbo version of a Lak 17 if I were based at
Long Mynd - probably 100 percent more x-country flying for 20 percent
more cost. (In East Anglia, there are far more good fields and quite a
few aerodromes and gliding sites, and £10k buys a lot of retrieve
miles, so here I didn't think I needed a turbo. Now, I'm not so sure -
I visit other places where it would help.)

I would also recommend no flaps for a middle-aged late returnee to
gliding, so a Lak 19 turbo or equivalent would be my personal
recommendation.

Just my 2p-worth.

Chris N.

There are a couple of reasons for your (original poster)
getting a used glider such as an LS-4 or a Discus b.
They are easy to fly and they are high enough performance
to challenge you for several years. At 58 you still
have many good years ahead. Further, it is better
to get a used glider than you can bang up for a couple
of years while you perfect your skills, and then you
can go for your dream ship and then you won't subject
it to the same treatment your first one got. These
are the words of an acquaintance who is a racing pilot,
sells new gliders, and has a glider repair shop.

Originally Posted by Frank Whiteley

brian d wrote:
Hello Pundits,

Now that I am retired I have decided to live a little before its to
late....no more I will do X Y and Z NEXT YEAR. I first went solo in a
glider at the Midland Gliding club in 1976 and then solo on power the
same year. Power flying quickly lost its attraction and I didnt
complete my licence but my first love was always gliding .
I have not done any gliding for a number of years and intend buying my
first glider in the next few months....the question is which one....and
whether or not to go for outright ownership or a syndicate machine.

My shortlist is now as follows: Max budget £35K

FIRST CHOICE ASW22 I am told that the best version is the BL. I
would welcome any other opinions as to whether this is true or not !!
all though the thought of a field landing in something with this much
span is off putting £10k for a fifth share in a syndicate that only
flew 80 hours last year is attractive.
I should add that I personally DONT WANT TO FLY AT WEEKENDS. so I am
quite marketable myself.
I of course accept that I will not be a good enough pilot to jump
straight into something with an LD of 60/1 and a 22/24 Metre span after
a weekends refresher at Church Stretton.
The plan would be to do an intensive 2 week tailor made course in the
UK ( SUGGESTIONS AS TO EXACTLY WHERE ARE ALSO WELCOME) and then have
six weeks.... or more if advised... at somewhere like Fuentemilanos in
Spain where i understand I might get 30 hours flying EVERY week if I
book in May/June next year !!
It might be that even this level of intensive instruction and practice
wouldnt be enough and I hope that at 58 years old I2 am mature enough
to get into an ASW22 when I am ready as opposed to when I am the only
one that thinks I am ready.

SECOND CHOICE

A quarter share in a STEMME ST V10

Probably the easiest option with all the advantages of long distance "
go look and see" soaring, self launching independance, virtually
guaranteed SAFE engine restarts and near certain back to base return
trips home at the end of a day thats as long as you want it to
be...only disadvantage iffy ground handling.

THIRD CHOICE

A LAK 12

For outright ownership...lots of bang for the buck ! cheap to buy, very
strong a great long distance tourer although not a competition machine ;
the main disadvantage appears to be that the single piece wings weigh in
at 240llbs each and the trailer is as long as a bowling alley.
Despite being cheap the preparation to fly it would follow the same
plan as the ASW22, two weeks in England and 4/6 weeks in Spain.

FOURTH CHOICE

ASW 20L
For outright ownership.
this would keep everything nice and simple....which is probably why its
the last on my list.

Well you will all be pleased to know that I have come to the end of my
first post...any helpfull opinions would be much appreciated.

Regards brian d




--
brian d
Assuming you have not much more experience in gliders than power, pick
a club with a Janus C or better twin. Take about a dozen instructional
flights. Then announce your plans to the CFI and see if you'll be
allowed to fly your choices at that site any time soon. Also check
with your potential insurers.

IMVHO, if you want to fly big wings, get an Open Cirrus (German, not
VTC) and enjoy yourself for 2-3 years before moving up.

If you have 500 hours P1, press on.

Frank Whiteley

Help...500 HOURS !!! I had about 70 hours when I ran out of time/money ect and I didnt even manage to find the time to take my bronze Cert .
The idea of doing an intensive course in the UK plus Spain was to get the hours in next Spring
then hopefully bag at least a silver C in a Spanish climate which would give me more flights/hours in less days...I have often been dissapionted with the hours flying promised on a UK holiday course when compared with the reality of the hours actually flown.
...and then find a CFI (friendly) and say something like er well er ...ive got nearly 200 hundred hours and a Silver C "WHICH OF THESE DO YOU THINK I MIGHT BE ABLE TO FLY THIS YEAR ..."

by the way see that trailer over there....
Would you rule out a Lak 12 to fly from somewhere like the Long Mynd which has tons of room for those long landing runs on spongey soil
I will however look at the Janus do you know if there are any clubs operating one of these on a instructional course so that I could try one out ??
Thanks for the helpfull advice

Brian

FIRST CHOICE ASW22
SECOND CHOICE A quarter share in a STEMME ST V10
THIRD CHOICE A LAK 12
FOURTH CHOICE ASW 20L


Must be the waning days of summer for us in the Northern
Hemisphere....you might poke around ras using search
to dig up threads on these ships.

I would be interested in knowing what your goals and
objectives might be in more detail before commenting...rather
then debate each ship point by point.
Particularly are you going to rig it or does it live
in a hangar.
IMVHO a good trailer is worth more then a couple of
points L/D, compared to a crappy trailer.
Automatic hookups....I like what the previous poster
mentioned, either you get it 100% perfect every time,
or you die.