HondaJet: Not A Steam Gage In Sight

Larry Dighera wrote:
http://world.honda.com/HondaJet/Styling/FlightDeck/
· All information, from flight and engine instrumentation to
navigation, communication, terrain and traffic data, is uniquely
integrated and digitally presented on the dual, large-format, high-
resolution primary flight displays and the multifunction display


· The HondaJet cockpit configuration provides a high degree of
integration for enhanced situational awareness, functionality, ease of
operation, redundancy, and flight safety.

Diamond aircraft are also all-electric, as well as nearly all jets and
turboprops.

Look, the only thing the vacuum pump runs in most planes that have one
is the attitude indicator and sometimes the DG, and it is far more
failure-prone than the electrical system. Not everybody designs planes
as if they were Cessna Skyhawks or Piper Tripacers. Those planes have
vacuum systems because they are cheap, not because they give you added
redundancy. Some manufacturers have had the gall to tell you that
putting unreliable systems on an airplane increases safety, but it
obviously does not. An enormous amount of instrument training is
devoted to failures of the vacuum system and people die anyway.
Technology has advanced somewhat since the 1950s. Given the enormous
number of lawsuits against manufacturers of vacuum pumps it is only a
matter of time before they disappear entirely. The true function of a
vaccum pump is to fail at the worst possible moment.

You talk about the failure of the power system on a Cessna 172S on a
long over-water ferry flight as if the plane was designed for that type
of flying. Ferry pilots ought to know that theirs is a high-risk
business. The battery backup on a 172S is perfectly adequate to get you
down safely in 99.9% of flights. If you choose to fly ANY plane where a
failure can put in a situation where you cannot recover, that is your
choice, but it is not the fault of the airplane or its designers. If
you choose to fly single-engine or single pilot IFR at night over the
mountains or long distances over water, that is your choice. But don't
complain that someone did not give you an 'out' when trouble happens.

"Bucky" wrote in messageI found this article on the Airbus 320, which has
an all glass cockpit:

All glass, except the back-up altimeter and back-up airspeed indicator,
which are mechanical. The back-up attitude indicator has an internal battery
which is normally recharged by the aircraft's system. The FADECs are self
powered but the EICAS is not.

Many steam gauge airplanes will have indicator failures following the loss
of all electricity because the air reference instruments get data from an
air data computer and can't function in a stand-alone mode. Before RVSM ,
many airplanes had purely mechanical air reference instruments on the
co-pilot's side, but now most of those operate on a second air data
computer.

"The energy supply is backed up in several ways. Along with one
generator per engine, a third generator is powered by the APU. A fourth
power supply is available by extending a little fan generator into the
airstream. The chances of experiencing a complete power loss in an A320
are calculated to be at around one in one trillion.

And yet, it did happen recently. A loss of all display units has happened a
number of times.

Should this happen,
the above mentioned mechanical system of the rudder and the elevator
trim ensure a safe landing."

All well and good if one is in VMC conditions. Even then, the landing will
be 'eventful'. In the simulator, in VMC conditions, only 50% get on the
runway without damage and many of those don't stop on the runway. And good
luck finding an airport in the first place without the IRS, GPS, VOR, ADF,
or ATC.

D.

Recently, cjcampbell posted:

Neil Gould wrote:
Recently, Larry Dighera posted:

http://world.honda.com/HondaJet/Styling/FlightDeck/
· All information, from flight and engine instrumentation to
navigation, communication, terrain and traffic data, is uniquely
integrated and digitally presented on the dual, large-format, high-
resolution primary flight displays and the multifunction display


· The HondaJet cockpit configuration provides a high degree of
integration for enhanced situational awareness, functionality, ease
of operation, redundancy, and flight safety.

It will be interesting to see how this one is FAA-certified. Power
failure would be a worst-case scenario, so I'd be surprised if this
plane lacked multiple power sources, but a lightning hit could be a
problem.

It might surprise you, but a vacuum pump is not required for FAA
certification. There are quite a number of airplanes out there flying
without them, including most airliners. Many general aviation planes
are all electric. A vacuum pump is a *liability* not a backup system.

Well, not only does this not surprise me, it isn't news. ;-) Having
experienced a vacuum pump failure, and knowing the relatively short MTBF
of those units, it is not a matter of *whether* they'll fail, but when.

Complete power failure in a jet is not a good thing anyway. Many jets
and turboprops could not survive it, not least because it means
complete loss of flight controls.

Understandable. In the case of this plane, I don't know whether the flight
controls are electric or hydraulic, but I'd hope that in either case
they'd have backups for normal power issues (failed generators, etc.) and
be robust enough to withstand the power surge from a lightning hit.
However, PFD circuits may not survive such a hit, so it made me think
about what I'd do as a pilot of one of these planes, and the answer was
pretty simple: keep a Garmin 496 in the "glove box"! ;-)

Neil

On 22 Oct 2006 17:37:29 -0700, "cjcampbell"
wrote in
. com:

You talk about the failure of the power system on a Cessna 172S on a
long over-water ferry flight as if the plane was designed for that type
of flying. Ferry pilots ought to know that theirs is a high-risk
business. The battery backup on a 172S is perfectly adequate to get you
down safely in 99.9% of flights. If you choose to fly ANY plane where a
failure can put in a situation where you cannot recover, that is your
choice, but it is not the fault of the airplane or its designers. If
you choose to fly single-engine or single pilot IFR at night over the
mountains or long distances over water, that is your choice. But don't
complain that someone did not give you an 'out' when trouble happens.

Pilots should be made aware of the potential magnitude of the failure
mode when the glass cockpit goes into infinite re-boot mode. All
communications, navigation, autopilot, etc are lost. I doubt many who
fly behind such equipment are aware of that.

Larry Dighera wrote:
On 22 Oct 2006 17:37:29 -0700, "cjcampbell"
wrote in
. com:

You talk about the failure of the power system on a Cessna 172S on a
long over-water ferry flight as if the plane was designed for that type
of flying. Ferry pilots ought to know that theirs is a high-risk
business. The battery backup on a 172S is perfectly adequate to get you
down safely in 99.9% of flights. If you choose to fly ANY plane where a
failure can put in a situation where you cannot recover, that is your
choice, but it is not the fault of the airplane or its designers. If
you choose to fly single-engine or single pilot IFR at night over the
mountains or long distances over water, that is your choice. But don't
complain that someone did not give you an 'out' when trouble happens.

Pilots should be made aware of the potential magnitude of the failure
mode when the glass cockpit goes into infinite re-boot mode. All
communications, navigation, autopilot, etc are lost. I doubt many who
fly behind such equipment are aware of that.

It is in the emergency procedures. Pilots should be aware of those.

On 24 Oct 2006 18:08:11 -0700, "cjcampbell"
wrote in
om:


Larry Dighera wrote:
On 22 Oct 2006 17:37:29 -0700, "cjcampbell"
wrote in
. com:

Pilots should be made aware of the potential magnitude of the failure
mode when the glass cockpit goes into infinite re-boot mode. All
communications, navigation, autopilot, etc are lost. I doubt many who
fly behind such equipment are aware of that.

It is in the emergency procedures. Pilots should be aware of those.

Are you able to provide the specific wording from the C-172S POH that
mentions that only ASI, AI, VSI, Alt. and magnetic compass steam gages
will be available in the event of glass cockpit failure, and also
mentions that the autopilot, radio communications, fuel gages, and
navigation systems will become inoperative?

http://www.garmin.com/support/userManual.jsp
G1000: Cessna Nav III:

a.. Cockpit Reference Guide, Rev. A, Oct, 2005 |
Download (3.53 MB)
b.. Cockpit Reference Guide (Cessna Nav III), Rev. B, Jul,
2005 | Download (4.43 MB)
c.. Cockpit Reference Guide Addendum (Cessna Nav III),
Rev. A, Jul, 2005 | Download (24 KB)
d.. Pilot's Guide, Rev. A, Nov, 2005 | Download (8.67
MB)
"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
| On 24 Oct 2006 18:08:11 -0700, "cjcampbell"
| wrote in
| om:
|
|
| Larry Dighera wrote:
| On 22 Oct 2006 17:37:29 -0700, "cjcampbell"
| wrote in
| . com:
|
| Pilots should be made aware of the potential magnitude
of the failure
| mode when the glass cockpit goes into infinite re-boot
mode. All
| communications, navigation, autopilot, etc are lost. I
doubt many who
| fly behind such equipment are aware of that.
|
| It is in the emergency procedures. Pilots should be aware
of those.
|
| Are you able to provide the specific wording from the
C-172S POH that
| mentions that only ASI, AI, VSI, Alt. and magnetic compass
steam gages
| will be available in the event of glass cockpit failure,
and also
| mentions that the autopilot, radio communications, fuel
gages, and
| navigation systems will become inoperative?

Larry Dighera schrieb:

Are you able to provide the specific wording from the C-172S POH that
mentions that only ASI, AI, VSI, Alt. and magnetic compass steam gages
will be available in the event of glass cockpit failure, and also
mentions that the autopilot, radio communications, fuel gages, and
navigation systems will become inoperative?

I don't need a scientific degree in logic to understand even without
reading the POH that when the screen goes black, all those nifty things
which were on that very screen before are, well, not available anymore.

Besides, pilots flew with "only ASI, AI, VSI, Alt. and magnetic compass
steam gages" for decades, so what's the big deal. I agree that a backup
radio would be nice, though. (Which would perfectly double as a
navigation aid using VDF.)

Stefan

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .
| On 24 Oct 2006 18:08:11 -0700, "cjcampbell"
| wrote in
| om:
|
|
| Larry Dighera wrote:
| On 22 Oct 2006 17:37:29 -0700, "cjcampbell"
| wrote in
| . com:
|
| Pilots should be made aware of the potential magnitude
| of the failure mode when the glass cockpit goes into infinite re-boot
| mode. All communications, navigation, autopilot, etc are lost. I
| doubt many who fly behind such equipment are aware of that.
|
| It is in the emergency procedures. Pilots should be aware of those.
|
| Are you able to provide the specific wording from the C-172S POH that
| mentions that only ASI, AI, VSI, Alt. and magnetic compass steam gages
| will be available in the event of glass cockpit failure, and also
| mentions that the autopilot, radio communications, fuel gages, and
| navigation systems will become inoperative?


On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 06:26:41 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
wrote in
:

http://www.garmin.com/support/userManual.jsp
G1000: Cessna Nav III:

I found the links to the documents you mentioned below on this page:


http://www.garmin.com/support/userMa...&product=Al l


a.. Cockpit Reference Guide, Rev. A, Oct, 2005 |
Download (3.53 MB)


http://www.garmin.com/manuals/G1000:...renceGuide.pdf
G1000 Cockpit Reference Guide for the Cessna Nav III

While it does contain 14 warning messages, it contains no
reference to emergency procedures.


b.. Cockpit Reference Guide (Cessna Nav III), Rev. B, Jul,
2005 | Download (4.43 MB)


http://www.garmin.com/manuals/G1000:...aNav III_.pdf
G1000 cockpit reference guide for the Cessna Nav III

While it does contain 14 warning messages, it contains no
reference to emergency procedures.


c.. Cockpit Reference Guide Addendum (Cessna Nav III),
Rev. A, Jul, 2005 | Download (24 KB)


http://www.garmin.com/manuals/G1000:...snaNavIII_.pdf

This two paragraph note is irrelevant to this discussion


d.. Pilot's Guide, Rev. A, Nov, 2005 | Download (8.67 MB)

http://www.garmin.com/manuals/G1000:...ilotsGuide.pdf
G1000 Pilot’s Guide for Cessna Nav III

While it does contain 7 warning messages, it contains no
reference to emergency procedures.

Page 1-10 contains this note:

NOTE: Please see the Aircraft Flight Manual
(AFM) for specific procedures concerning
avionics power application and emergency
power supply operation.


So it would appear that those documents fail to provide the pilot with
information relating to the complete loss of radio communications,
navigation systems, autopilot, engine gages, ... in the event the
G1000 becomes inoperative.

Thanks for the information you provided, but it doesn't seem to
contain any emergency procedures; those must be in the Cessna C-172S
POH.

I'd still like to see the quote that informs the pilot, that complete
loss of radio communications, navigation systems, autopilot, engine
gages, ... will occur in the event the G1000 becomes inoperative. If
that is only implied, not specifically stated, it should be amended,
in my opinion.

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:37:05 +0200, Stefan
wrote in :

Larry Dighera schrieb:

Are you able to provide the specific wording from the C-172S POH that
mentions that only ASI, AI, VSI, Alt. and magnetic compass steam gages
will be available in the event of glass cockpit failure, and also
mentions that the autopilot, radio communications, fuel gages, and
navigation systems will become inoperative?

I don't need a scientific degree in logic to understand even without
reading the POH that when the screen goes black, all those nifty things
which were on that very screen before are, well, not available anymore.

True. But I wasn't aware that the autopilot wouldn't even work as a
wing leveler.

Besides, pilots flew with "only ASI, AI, VSI, Alt. and magnetic compass
steam gages" for decades, so what's the big deal.

They usually had some sort of fuel gage.

I agree that a backup radio would be nice, though. (Which would perfectly
double as a navigation aid using VDF.)


Agreed. It is vital to carry portable comm and nav equipment on IFR
flights. What is VDF? I presume the 'DF' refers to direction
finding, but what's the 'V' stand for?