Regs regarding "VFR flight following?" (also: "need to vent")

"Ben Jackson" wrote in message
...

I've always wondered what the rules were. I've had PDX give me altitude
restrictions when I'm talking to them above their airspace. One day on
the way to Mt St Helens I recall being outside the lateral AND vertical
bounds of their airspace when I got an "at or below" for some crossing
traffic.

Since that's not as annoying as a vector I've never had cause to challenge
them. And they've been nice to me while inside their airspace, too.


What do you consider to be "their airspace"?



When I looked all I found was "obey ATC instructions". That's sort of
ambiguous when you are in a situation where you're not required to talk
to ATC at all, but happen to be...


Doesn't anyone read the AIM anymore?

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap3/aim0302.html#3-2-4

: We fly in that area a lot. Coming from the Southwest, MKE will usually
: not take a hand-off from Rockford Approach, which is always
: aggravating.

I'm usually coming from the south-southeast (Waukegan, Kenosha) and just nicking their airspace. Haven't gone
yet where I talked to them from under their Charlie and *didn't* get vectored to the west.

: If they DO take the hand-off (or if you're able to catch them on your
: own, they usually won't vector you around if you stay to the south of
: their airspace. If you head to the north (to Timmerman or Waukesha, for
: example), they will vector you around as needed, but not excessively,
: IMHO.

I actually did a "downtown sightseeing" tour for the first time when I was up there about two weeks ago. They
were very accomodating.

: If you fly past them along the lake shore, however, they WILL try to
: send you way out over the lake. I always tell them "unable", and with
: one exception they have always let me stay in tight to shore. The one
: exception resulted in being vectored all the way around Class C to the
: west, which really sucked.
: --

I don't remember the sectional exactly, but I imagine the SFC part of their Charlie goes to the lake, doesn't
it? You're kinda screwed there, but it's good to hear that they usually allow it.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

: 12500 if we wanted. Unable, so we were vectored 20 miles out of our way.
: No I know the "correct" way to hand this would be to terminate radar
: services.
:

: The top of Charlotte approach control airspace is 10,500 MSL? That's odd,
: these things tend to be at IFR altitudes. In that situation 11,000 over
: Charlotte approach airspace would be virtually unusable.

The top was 10,000. We were at 10,500 (almost due north, so VOR-VOR was sometimes even, sometimes odd...at
that point it was slightly west). At even 10,001 feet, we wouldn't have had to call them at all, but since we did we
got a 20 mile detour as a result.

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

: You were over the *top* of their airspace, and they vectored you 20
: miles out of the way?

: I'd have told them to pound salt. Politely, of course...

Yep... at this point in time I wouldn't accept it either. At the time however, I was a green pilot flying a
friend's airplane, (with the friend right-seat) so I didn't know any better.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

On 2006-10-27, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Ben Jackson" wrote in message
...

I've always wondered what the rules were. I've had PDX give me altitude
restrictions when I'm talking to them above their airspace. One day on
the way to Mt St Helens I recall being outside the lateral AND vertical
bounds of their airspace when I got an "at or below" for some crossing
traffic.

What do you consider to be "their airspace"?

I may have been in their "outer area". It's funny this should come up,
because I recall that a question about the class C outer area is the only
one I missed on the private written.

When I looked all I found was "obey ATC instructions".

Doesn't anyone read the AIM anymore?

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap3/aim0302.html#3-2-4

Are you referring to:

Pilot participation is voluntary within the outer area and can
be discontinued, within the outer area, at the pilot's request.
Class C services will be provided in the outer area unless the
pilot requests termination of the service.

But I'm referring to FAR 91.123(b):

Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft
contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic
control is exercised.

So the question remains: If ATC issues me an instruction when I'm
speaking to them voluntarily (so 91.123(a) does not apply becuase
I'm not operating under a clearance), am I stuck with that instruction?

The closest I can find is in 708 7-8-5(b) re Altitude Assignments:
http://www.faa.gov/ATPubs/ATC/Chp7/atc0708.html

Aircraft assigned altitudes which are contrary to 14 CFR Section
91.159 shall be advised to resume altitudes appropriate for the
direction of flight when the altitude is no longer needed for
separation, when leaving the outer area, or when terminating
Class C service.

I suppose that means that I *do* have to obey ATC, but they have to drop
the altitude restriction if I cancel. So from that I infer that if you
get a vector you don't like while in the outer area, a "cancel flight
following" should result in "resume own nav".

--
Ben Jackson AD7GD

http://www.ben.com/

I have had good luck with Flight Following but am pretty touchy on
being given vectors just to ease the controllers duties. I most always
cancel flight following, dial in 1200 and remind them there has NEVER
been a controller killed in a midair, it is always the pilots in
command. After all,, they work for us, not the other way around.

Ben
KJAC.
Ben Jackson wrote:
On 2006-10-27, wrote:
I had an interesting experience the other day. To some degree
I was testing the theory that a local Class-C facility would invariably
vector VFR aircraft outside

I've always wondered what the rules were. I've had PDX give me altitude
restrictions when I'm talking to them above their airspace. One day on
the way to Mt St Helens I recall being outside the lateral AND vertical
bounds of their airspace when I got an "at or below" for some crossing
traffic.

Since that's not as annoying as a vector I've never had cause to challenge
them. And they've been nice to me while inside their airspace, too.

*again* issued me vectors and said to stay outside 10 miles. I
reponded, "NXXXX would like to terminate radar services." I never
received the "radar service terminated, squawk 1200," so I inquired
as to whether or not they acknowledged my request to terminate. The
controller replied, "I want you to stay with ME until west of the

Yeah, I'm not surprised that their overriding goal is to keep an eye
on you. I wonder what was going on during that pause.

to find the official regs as far as flight following goes.

When I looked all I found was "obey ATC instructions". That's sort of
ambiguous when you are in a situation where you're not required to talk
to ATC at all, but happen to be...

--
Ben Jackson AD7GD

http://www.ben.com/

:
: When I looked all I found was "obey ATC instructions". That's sort of
: ambiguous when you are in a situation where you're not required to talk
: to ATC at all, but happen to be...
:

: Doesn't anyone read the AIM anymore?

: http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap3/aim0302.html#3-2-4

Since I didn't (nor had no intention to) enter the Charlie, all I see that is relevant is:

d. Air Traffic Services. When two-way radio communications and radar contact are established, all participating VFR
aircraft a

1. Sequenced to the primary airport.

2. Provided Class C services within the Class C airspace and the outer area.

3. Provided basic radar services beyond the outer area on a workload permitting basis. This can be terminated by the
controller if workload dictates.

Once I stated, "I would like to terminate radar services," part d.2. is no longer relevant since I am no longer
participating.

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

In article om,
"Jay Honeck" wrote:

I remember once coming back from Florida over Charlotte, SC in a friend's
PA-24-250. We'd been slow-baking at 10,500 for about 3 hours without O2,
so we were
probably both a bit hypoxic. We were going to go right over the top (top
is at
10.5)... they "refused," saying we could go to 12500 if we wanted. Unable,
so we were
vectored 20 miles out of our way. No I know the "correct" way to hand this
would be
to terminate radar services.

You were over the *top* of their airspace, and they vectored you 20
miles out of the way?

I'd have told them to pound salt. Politely, of course...

500 above the top of a Class B is a pretty busy place. All those jets tend
to enter and exit the CBAS through the top. Depending on the arrival and
departure routes in use at the time, you may find yourself in the middle of
a very dense line of heavy metal.

Are you within your legal rights to blow off ATC's vector, squawk 1200, and
continue on your merry way fat, dumb, and happy? Sure you are. But legal
isn't always smart.

The top was 10,000. We were at 10,500 (almost due north, so VOR-VOR was sometimes even, sometimes odd...at
that point it was slightly west). At even 10,001 feet, we wouldn't have had to call them at all, but since we did we
got a 20 mile detour as a result.

That's just absurd. You must've found a controller that was ****ed
about not being allowed to wear flip-flops to work...

ducking!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...

"Dick Meade" wrote in message
...

OK, so how does this work? Two years ago, enroute OSH for the fly-in, I
approach Madison with flight following. I'm given vectors, despite the
fact I'm at 11,500 feet.

Just how far up does their airspace extend?


The last I heard Madison approach airspace went up to 10,000, it's
possible it's been moved up to 13,000 to be consistent with Milwaukee
approach which it abuts. If you were at 11,500 and talking to Madison
approach that would seem to be the case.


You mean that they will handle IFR traffic up to that altitude not that
their controlled space goes up that high. The charted space for Madison is
up to 4900 (or something close, I'm not looking at the chart). If I pass
overhead of that or under or around, I will monitor but not bother them.
However, Madison controllers are extremely accomodating. I have never had
them vector me at all. The only time that even came close was a "...
transition approved. Cross directly over the airport to stay clear of
traffic."

Milwaukee, on the other hand, seem very territorial. They are difficult to
deal with for practice approaches at Kenosha and they aggressively protect
their airspace around MKE by vectoring VFR traffic well clear. Many years
ago, I was passing along the lakeshore under their airspace. I called up as
a courtesy, got a squawk, then a chewing out for flying so close to their
airspace, then vectors further out into Lake Michigan. I responded, "Lake
94P, squawking 1200, will remain clear of your airspace." I've never called
them again unless inbound to MKE. If their airspace is busier than the
protected areas are designed to support, I sympathize. If they want my
cooperation, they need to be nice about it

___________________
Travis.