Lessons learned from the Oregon tragedy

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...
You don't starve in six days. You can run out of water, but
cold exposure is more likely. Was anybody looking for the
person you spoke about?


60 days. And, yes looking the whole time. Found them in the spring.

Al G

"Al G" wrote:

"john smith" wrote

Newps wrote:

Tennis shoes, no hat or gloves. There could have been no other
outcome.

Sure there could have!
He walked the wrong way.
One mile in the opposite direction was a stocked fishing lodge,
according to the reports I have been reading.

Well, it might have been 1 mile by GPS, but you can't get there from
here.

Also, I may be wrong, but as I remember, Black Bar Lodge is on the
South side of the Rogue river, and Kim was on the north side.

Black Bar Lodge is on the north side of the river.

Here is a link to a map containing the latest information I've seen on
the subject:

http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat....91/Main/707603

Note that early information had the car at the junction of the road to
Black Bar Lodge. This information was corrected, and the place they were
stuck was about 6 miles farther up the road, as shown on the map in the
link. Therefore, Kim was more than a mile from the car when he was
found, and Black Bar Lodge was about 7 miles from where they were stuck.

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Yes, all are things that should have been done. However, I still am not
convinced that the blanket advice to stay with the vehicle is correct.
With proper clothing (not tennis shoes), I can easily walk 10 miles a day
in pretty rough terrain

The mother should be heralded for her heroism by feeding the children even
though she was probably starved herself. Mr. Kim was likely already
physiologically compromised; if Mrs. Kim was taking care of the children, he
was probably the one removing the tires and working outside. If so, he may
have been close to physical exhaustion and hypothermia when he made the
decision to walk, and again when he left the road.

Meanwhile, at this very moment, there are search and rescue people trying to
evacuate climbers from MT. HOOD IN FREAKIN' DECEMBER.

One of the roads to the mountain just reopened having been washed out by the
winter storms, and the wind coming out of the east has been such that I
haven't even bothered trying to fly on the sunny days...too damned windy to
practice those power-off precision landings. One can only wonder about
-those- hikers. "Worst string of weather we've had in over a year; most
turbulent, cold and deadly winter conditions. I know...let's CLIMB A
MOUNTAIN. If we get hurt, why, somebody will surely risk their asses to
come bail us out. Their families will be -so- excited if those helicopter
crews come home alive..."

-c

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

For sure, I'd have walked down the road.

Until you became delirious from hypothermia... At that point, you don't
know what you might do.

Search and rescue crews mentioned the hypothermic paradox where, when people
start really losing it to the cold, they paradoxically start shedding their
clothing...

-c

"Al G" wrote in message
...

"john smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Newps wrote:

Tennis shoes, no hat or gloves. There could have been no other outcome.

Sure there could have!
He walked the wrong way.
One mile in the opposite direction was a stocked fishing lodge,
according to the reports I have been reading.


Well, it might have been 1 mile by GPS, but you can't get there from here.

Also, I may be wrong, but as I remember, Black Bar Lodge is on the South
side of the Rogue river, and Kim was on the north side. No way you're
going to cross this time of year. Black Bar is the last "outpost"(i.e.
open to the public) at the top of the wild and scenic section of the
Rogue. For 14 years I flew Walter Haas in and out of his place at Winkle
Bar, Zane Grey's old cabin, and the next lodge down from Black Bar. We
used a turbo C-206 w/ a Robertson kit to access the beautifully mowed 500'
of grass next to the cabins, on a bend in the river. 2 feet short, or 3
feet long, and you were in the water. The Calvert Peak airstrip is at
3800msl(1600' long), and is just Northwest of where these folks were
found. The general terrain around there goes from 5298' @ Brandy Peak, on
the South side, down to 500' at the rivers edge, and back up to Mt.
Boliver @ 4319' on the North side. Many peaks on both side are in the
4000' range.This time of year, it is not uncommon for a low overcast to
lay in between snow showers, and remain for weeks. Even if you could get
to the top of a hill, you couldn't see anything.
I live about 30nm north of this area, and can tell you it is very
vertical, shadows at high noon and all that. He probably walked closer to
15 or 20 miles, winding around the mountain getting down to a spot a mile
or so below his car.
Last year a guy in a motor home did the same thing, and he was up there
with his kids for 3 weeks to a month, before someone spotted him from the
air. In that case everyone got out. They had a lot of provisions.
The pilot that found them is a student of mine. Well, I flew with him
for his private training almost thirty years ago. He is a very level head,
and not easily excitable. I believe he was commuting from his ranch in
Agness, at the junction of the Rogue and Illinois Rivers.

Al G


My apologies, I just got a look at a desent map, it looks like they were
on the south side of the river, on the same side as Black Bar. This is steep
terrain indeed.

Al G

gatt writes:

The mother should be heralded for her heroism by feeding the children even
though she was probably starved herself.

Nobody was anywhere close to starvation after only a week.
Dehydration is the only risk over such a short period, and if they
could melt snow, that was taken care of.

Mr. Kim was likely already physiologically compromised ...

Not by any lack of food.

... if Mrs. Kim was taking care of the children, he
was probably the one removing the tires and working outside.

The children don't require continuous attention.

If so, he may have been close to physical exhaustion and hypothermia
when he made the decision to walk, and again when he left the road.

I doubt that. He probably simply decided after a week that there were
no search crews looking, or that there was no way of knowing when they
would find them, so in desperation he decided to go outside and look
for help. The decision was not unreasonable; he was just unlucky.
There was a lot working against him, but once they were stuck that
couldn't be changed.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Meanwhile, at this very moment, there are search and rescue people trying
to
evacuate climbers from MT. HOOD IN FREAKIN' DECEMBER.

One of the roads to the mountain just reopened having been washed out by
the
winter storms, and the wind coming out of the east has been such that I
haven't even bothered trying to fly on the sunny days...too damned windy
to
practice those power-off precision landings. One can only wonder about
-those- hikers. "Worst string of weather we've had in over a year; most
turbulent, cold and deadly winter conditions. I know...let's CLIMB A
MOUNTAIN. If we get hurt, why, somebody will surely risk their asses to
come bail us out. Their families will be -so- excited if those helicopter
crews come home alive..."

This has been a major irritant to me for a long time, and I suspect that
dramatic rescues as 'reality tv" may help to fuel the problem. However, it
all comes back to policy decisions...

Peter
Annoyance keeps me alive and healthy;
my blood pressure doesn't ebb away!

The mother should be heralded for her heroism by feeding the children
even
though she was probably starved herself.

Nobody was anywhere close to starvation after only a week.
Dehydration is the only risk over such a short period, and if they
could melt snow, that was taken care of.

Mr. Kim was likely already physiologically compromised ...

Not by any lack of food.

... if Mrs. Kim was taking care of the children, he
was probably the one removing the tires and working outside.

The children don't require continuous attention.

If so, he may have been close to physical exhaustion and hypothermia
when he made the decision to walk, and again when he left the road.

I doubt that. He probably simply decided after a week that there were
no search crews looking, or that there was no way of knowing when they
would find them, so in desperation he decided to go outside and look
for help. The decision was not unreasonable; he was just unlucky.
There was a lot working against him, but once they were stuck that
couldn't be changed.

--
Move your sim, and a large fan, into the nearest freezer. It you give you a
new perspective!

Peter

wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote:

I know that is the standard advice, but I'm not sure I could follow it
for more than a day or two. Personally, I'd rather die trying than die
sitting waiting on someone who may never come.


I know what you're saying Matt, but I don't think I've ever heard of
anybody dying in their car when they got stuck. I'm sure there's a
couple of cases, but from all the stories I've heard in our general
area (you're in Montrose right?) the vast majority of exposure deaths
were when people left a protective shelter.

There are a few of these deaths every winter, from somewhere in the
West. Last winter's most memorable was a guy who was only about 100
yards from a working payphone and a trailmarker - with instructions on
how to get help. He died of thirst and hypothermia. Can't remember
which range of mountains. He wrote in his journal, IIRC - but
apparently never got out of the car * at all * - took about three days!

But, I was wondering about this very same issue. Given that it snowed
the first night, then rained for 3 days (Mrs. Kim's account) - and that
they had water, if not food - just how cold do you think it was inside
that car each night?

I'm thinking they had no blankets or insulation of any kind - he
obviously had a few pieces of clothing and was probably wearing all of
them.

How long would it have taken for them all to die of starvation,
hypothermia, etc., you think?

A.

wrote:

Anyway, as I said originally I'm sorry to hear about this. But having
lived and played in and around the high country (CO front range
mountains), I find this lack of preparation irresponsible and frankly
not very smart. Leaving your car in the 1st place is a BAD MOVE...

Generally, I'd agree. Especially if I was leaving an airplane.

But in this case.... I'd have left the car sooner than 8 days. Either
folks weren't looking for me, or they were looking in the wrong place.
However, I'd have NEVER left the road. Searchers can see you on a
road. They can't see you in the trees.
He did his best. Too bad.