Super Skycycle

Has anyone seen, or read about, that Skycycle?



http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/sscycle/gallery.htm

http://javimoya.com/blog/youtube_en.php

http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/sscycle/images/002.jpg

http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/sscycle/images/012.jpg

http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/sscycle/images/001.jpg

http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/sscycle/images/010.jpg




--

boB
copter.six

Has anyone seen, or read about, that Skycycle?

http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/sscycle/images/010.jpg

Well as everybody knows.... I'm just a little lurker, armchair pilot,
and always stand to be corrected.....

BUT.... Everything that I've ever read about gyros in this group always
comes back to the fact that if it does not have a centre line stab the
machine is prone to bunt over.

Too bad Kenny Sandy Eggo isn't around these days because he is very
knowleageble on the subject.

He's been flying gyros for years.

If you look at the Jpgs posted in the URL you will see how low the stab
is on these machines.

If I bought one of those I'd raise the stab up to be in line with the
centre line of the engine.

Shiver wrote:


Well as everybody knows.... I'm just a little lurker, armchair pilot,
and always stand to be corrected.....

BUT.... Everything that I've ever read about gyros in this group always
comes back to the fact that if it does not have a centre line stab the
machine is prone to bunt over.

Too bad Kenny Sandy Eggo isn't around these days because he is very
knowleageble on the subject.

He's been flying gyros for years.

If you look at the Jpgs posted in the URL you will see how low the stab
is on these machines.

If I bought one of those I'd raise the stab up to be in line with the
centre line of the engine.


Thanks.. I had read something about that earlier. I haven't seen any
recent articles about this thing and was hoping someone here had flown
one. There's no reference to any owners of the skycycle on their page.
I wonder if they have sold any.



--

boB
copter.six

"Shiver" wrote in message
...

Has anyone seen, or read about, that Skycycle?

http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/sscycle/images/010.jpg

Well as everybody knows.... I'm just a little lurker, armchair pilot,
and always stand to be corrected.....

BUT.... Everything that I've ever read about gyros in this group always
comes back to the fact that if it does not have a centre line stab the
machine is prone to bunt over.

Actually, it's not the stab that needs to be center line, it's the thrust
line of the engine and prop. Having said all that, it is generally
considered preferable, at least from what I've read, to have he horizontal
stab in the prop wash. The idea being that the added air velocity will
improve the stabs stabilizing effect. I'm not sure I agree with that 100%
but I do agree that the horizontal stab is very import and should not be
dismissed as trivial. You'll still run into folks every now and then that
will claim the h-stab isn't needed on a gyro.

On a pusher style gyro, the engine thrust line should (ideally) be as close
to the vertical CG of the aircraft as possible. Many designs that have been
put out in past years had an engine thrust line that was some distance above
the vertical CG. That would induce a forward pitching moment. This force
was countered by the rearward inclination of the main rotor and as long as
you kept the main rotor loaded, everything balanced out and was fine. If
the pilot ever unloaded the rotor while under power, the forces involved
would not balance out and the aircraft was pitch forward (a bunt over, aka
"power push over") and the pilot would quickly find himself inverted and out
of options. Too many folks died this way.

These days, most manufacturers of any note are only producing centerline
thrust, or near centerline thrust gyros. Check out
http://www.aircommand.com and look at the designs of their single and two
place machine. Then do a search on "Air Command" and find pictures of their
older designs. The difference in the location of the engines thrust line
relative to the rest of the machine is dramatic. I've always been very
impressed that Air Command undertook this redesign of their product line in
the interest of flight safety. Some manufacturers have refused to do this
for fear of liability issues. It would be like admitting there was
something wrong with their older designs. At any rate, Air Command sells a
retrofit kit to convert their older designs into the new centerline thrust
model and recommends that the older bird not be flown until that
modification is done.

If you haven't seen it before, check out
http://www.rotaryforum.com/index.php. It's a discussion forum on
experimental rotorcraft and has lot's of good information on gyroplanes.
About the only down side to this one is that many of these guys have "very"
strong personalities and can be "very" opinionated. This means that
sometimes you have to wade through a lot of egos to get to the meaningful
information but if you're serious about getting into gyroplanes, it's well
worth the effort.

FWIW! :-)


Too bad Kenny Sandy Eggo isn't around these days because he is very
knowleageble on the subject.

He's been flying gyros for years.


Agreed!

Good luck & Fly Safe,
Steve R.

boB: I know a little bit about the Butterfly thing. The 4th picture down
on the left of the first website listed is a picture of me in my crack hat
sitting on the Super SkyCycle. I met Larry Neal, the SkyCycle designer a
number of years ago when we were producing the Popular Rotorcraft Magazine.
Larry had just acquired the job of Test Pilot of the Carter Copter, which
BTW, he successfully flew to an airspeed exceeding Mu 1. Larry is a very
ethical guy and a very knowledgeable gyro pilot and designer. I have
watched him demonstrate that landing gear of his by stopping the gyro about
10' in the air and letting it come down on its own from losing blade speed.
He adds throttle and takes off again to repeat the maneuver. I believe that
if Larry gives you a performance spec about his machine, you can take it to
the bank. If I was going to go back to the gyro flying, his ship would be
the first in line for me.
BTW squared, In the process of doing the PRA magazine we met and spent some
time with Comander Ken Wallis who is the UK gyro king. He did all of the
flying for the James Bond movie that had the "Little Nellie" gyro. He
doesn't share the statements that both horizontal stabilizers and center
line thrust are a must. At least in his experience, and I might add mine
(both my wife and I self taught in a Benson back in the late 60s and never
dinged the ship and flew in a variety of conditions). This is not to say
that some ships with an abundance of body work forward of the mast can't
benefit from both things tho. I think that the two seat side-by-side gyros
like the RAF and Sparrohawk would certainly fly different in gusty winds
than the skimpy single seat Benson that I used to fly.

--
Stuart Fields
Experimental Helo magazine
P. O. Box 1585
Inyokern, CA 93527
(760) 377-4478
(760) 408-9747 general and layout cell
(760) 608-1299 technical and advertising cell

www.vkss.com
www.experimentalhelo.com


"boB" wrote in message
...

Has anyone seen, or read about, that Skycycle?



http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/sscycle/gallery.htm

http://javimoya.com/blog/youtube_en.php

http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/sscycle/images/002.jpg

http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/sscycle/images/012.jpg

http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/sscycle/images/001.jpg

http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/sscycle/images/010.jpg




--

boB
copter.six

"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote in message
.. .
boB:
BTW squared, In the process of doing the PRA magazine we met and spent
some
time with Comander Ken Wallis who is the UK gyro king. He did all of the
flying for the James Bond movie that had the "Little Nellie" gyro. He
doesn't share the statements that both horizontal stabilizers and center
line thrust are a must. At least in his experience, and I might add mine
(both my wife and I self taught in a Benson back in the late 60s and never
dinged the ship and flew in a variety of conditions). This is not to say
that some ships with an abundance of body work forward of the mast can't
benefit from both things tho. I think that the two seat side-by-side
gyros
like the RAF and Sparrohawk would certainly fly different in gusty winds
than the skimpy single seat Benson that I used to fly.

--
Stuart Fields
Experimental Helo magazine
P. O. Box 1585
Inyokern, CA 93527
(760) 377-4478
(760) 408-9747 general and layout cell
(760) 608-1299 technical and advertising cell

Not trying to start any arguments here, there's been too many of them on
this subject through the years, but....

I believe you when you say that h-stabs and centerline thrust are not
necessarily a must. I know that many folks have flown gyros without these
features for years without incident. I also know that in my first 5 years
as a PRA member, it seemed like every time I turned around I was reading
about "another" member who had killed themselves in a high thrust line gyro
and "many" of these folks were not low time beginners. They were well
established members of the PRA who's opinions and experiences were very much
respected. Not all of these incidents were directly related to the high
thrust line issue but some of them were, at least many folks seemed to think
so.

In the past few years, there have been a number of people who have converted
a high thrust line gyro to centerline thrust and/or added a horizontal
stabilizer and in each case, there have been nothing but "glowing" reports
on the improvements in the handling of the aircraft, especially in turbulent
air. I've read hours upon hours of posts and information and waded through
heated arguments and respectful conversations on the subject and I firmly
believe that, while an experienced pilot can safely handle a high thrust
line gyro, I think a beginner or relatively low time pilot will be
infinitely better off in a centerline machine w/h-stab. I'm not a gyro
pilot so maybe my opinion on this isn't worth squat but I know what I've
seen and I know what I've read and I firmly believe that a pusher style gyro
should have a h-stab and the engine thrust line should be as close to
centerline thrust as possible. JMMOC, FWIW!

Respectfully,
Steve R.

Stuart & Kathryn Fields wrote:
boB: I know a little bit about the Butterfly thing. The 4th picture down
on the left of the first website listed is a picture of me in my crack hat
sitting on the Super SkyCycle. I met Larry Neal, the SkyCycle designer a



That is You! Nice to meet you and you look like you're having fun.
Looking at the rear wheels and tires, do you think it is limited when
used as a motorcycle? Is it something that shouldn't be used as a "get
around town" motorcycle?

An interesting thought. Since it's street legal, can a pilot land out on
a country road, drive to a nearby gas station, then take off from the
road again. Just a thought since there are so many little airstrips
dotting the countryside that you could land on then drive for gas from
there.


--

boB
copter.six

Steve R wrote:


On a pusher style gyro, the engine thrust line should (ideally) be as close
to the vertical CG of the aircraft as possible. Many designs that have been
put out in past years had an engine thrust line that was some distance above
the vertical CG. That would induce a forward pitching moment. This force
was countered by the rearward inclination of the main rotor and as long as
you kept the main rotor loaded, everything balanced out and was fine. If
the pilot ever unloaded the rotor while under power, the forces involved
would not balance out and the aircraft was pitch forward (a bunt over, aka
"power push over")


That sounds similar to my MX Sprint II back when I was instructing (see
note) out of Charping field near Temple Texas. The thrust was quite a
bit higher than the vertical CG. Cutting the throttle caused the nose
to pitch up but it was just something a person had to be aware of.



If you haven't seen it before, check out
http://www.rotaryforum.com/index.php. It's a discussion forum on
experimental rotorcraft and has lot's of good information on gyroplanes.
About the only down side to this one is that many of these guys have "very"
strong personalities and can be "very" opinionated. This means that
sometimes you have to wade through a lot of egos to get to the meaningful
information but if you're serious about getting into gyroplanes, it's well
worth the effort.

Good luck & Fly Safe,
Steve R.



Thanks again Steve. I did visit the rotary forum once. I think I'll try
again but you all are pretty knowledgeable here.


--

boB
copter.six

boB: Well I sure wouldn't plan on going to Sturgis from Southern Calif. but
from home to the airport? Yep. Flying off of a public road has been done,
but swinging those rotor blades would sure create a potential traffic
hazard. We met a guy in Alaska that had an RAF gyro in a hangar down a dirt
road not too far from the Dalton Highway who would taxi it out to the
pavement, take off and fly down to the gas station, gas up and fly, with
skis down his trap line landing on the frozen river. I doubt that the CHP
would find it very amusing tho to see a gyro land on the highway, convert to
MC and drive off. Probably get busted for excessive width in the gyro mode.

--
Stuart Fields
Experimental Helo magazine
P. O. Box 1585
Inyokern, CA 93527
(760) 377-4478
(760) 408-9747 general and layout cell
(760) 608-1299 technical and advertising cell

www.vkss.com
www.experimentalhelo.com


"boB" wrote in message
...
Stuart & Kathryn Fields wrote:
boB: I know a little bit about the Butterfly thing. The 4th picture
down
on the left of the first website listed is a picture of me in my crack
hat
sitting on the Super SkyCycle. I met Larry Neal, the SkyCycle designer
a



That is You! Nice to meet you and you look like you're having fun.
Looking at the rear wheels and tires, do you think it is limited when
used as a motorcycle? Is it something that shouldn't be used as a "get
around town" motorcycle?

An interesting thought. Since it's street legal, can a pilot land out on
a country road, drive to a nearby gas station, then take off from the
road again. Just a thought since there are so many little airstrips
dotting the countryside that you could land on then drive for gas from
there.


--

boB
copter.six

Steve: I know what you are talking about. We got into a controversy when
we produced the PRA magazine for publishing a letter from Cdr. Wallis
outlining his opinions on the CLT and HS. I was kind of taken aback with
all of the sudden inflammatory kinds of statements putting down the non
CLT/HS ships as I had never encountered any problem flying my Benson and I
flew it in the desert turbulence and winds strong enough to allow hovering
takeoffs. My wife flew the ship and she had only soloed a Piper Colt. So
we had no experience to support the damning criticisms of the Non CLT/HS
ships. A conversation with Ken Brock trying to see if I had just lucked out
and never experienced the close call in my Benson and he seemed to agree
more with Cdr. Wallis than the current PRA position. I tended to use Ken as
my expert on gyro things.
BTW, as I recall, we had to set my Super Mac up even higher than the stock
Benson because I was driving a larger diameter prop. I also had the
outboard motor fuel tank that set below the seat. I'm sure that my thrust
line was above the vertical c.g. with full fuel. The little rock guard on
the Benson sure didn't qualify as a HS either.
I guess I was either luckier than the others, or a good gyro pilot, or my
ship was somehow more stable than the others. I know for sure there has
been oodles of opinions and calculations floating about supporting the need
for CLT and HS. Now that I'm flying adefinitely unstable aircraft (helo) my
dog is not in the CLT/HS fight.
--
Stuart Fields
Experimental Helo magazine
P. O. Box 1585
Inyokern, CA 93527
(760) 377-4478
(760) 408-9747 general and layout cell
(760) 608-1299 technical and advertising cell

www.vkss.com
www.experimentalhelo.com


"Steve R" wrote in message
...
"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote in message
.. .
boB:
BTW squared, In the process of doing the PRA magazine we met and spent
some
time with Comander Ken Wallis who is the UK gyro king. He did all of
the
flying for the James Bond movie that had the "Little Nellie" gyro. He
doesn't share the statements that both horizontal stabilizers and center
line thrust are a must. At least in his experience, and I might add
mine
(both my wife and I self taught in a Benson back in the late 60s and
never
dinged the ship and flew in a variety of conditions). This is not to
say
that some ships with an abundance of body work forward of the mast can't
benefit from both things tho. I think that the two seat side-by-side
gyros
like the RAF and Sparrohawk would certainly fly different in gusty winds
than the skimpy single seat Benson that I used to fly.

--
Stuart Fields
Experimental Helo magazine
P. O. Box 1585
Inyokern, CA 93527
(760) 377-4478
(760) 408-9747 general and layout cell
(760) 608-1299 technical and advertising cell

Not trying to start any arguments here, there's been too many of them on
this subject through the years, but....

I believe you when you say that h-stabs and centerline thrust are not
necessarily a must. I know that many folks have flown gyros without these
features for years without incident. I also know that in my first 5 years
as a PRA member, it seemed like every time I turned around I was reading
about "another" member who had killed themselves in a high thrust line
gyro
and "many" of these folks were not low time beginners. They were well
established members of the PRA who's opinions and experiences were very
much
respected. Not all of these incidents were directly related to the high
thrust line issue but some of them were, at least many folks seemed to
think
so.

In the past few years, there have been a number of people who have
converted
a high thrust line gyro to centerline thrust and/or added a horizontal
stabilizer and in each case, there have been nothing but "glowing" reports
on the improvements in the handling of the aircraft, especially in
turbulent
air. I've read hours upon hours of posts and information and waded
through
heated arguments and respectful conversations on the subject and I firmly
believe that, while an experienced pilot can safely handle a high thrust
line gyro, I think a beginner or relatively low time pilot will be
infinitely better off in a centerline machine w/h-stab. I'm not a gyro
pilot so maybe my opinion on this isn't worth squat but I know what I've
seen and I know what I've read and I firmly believe that a pusher style
gyro
should have a h-stab and the engine thrust line should be as close to
centerline thrust as possible. JMMOC, FWIW!

Respectfully,
Steve R.