Intimidation by SLC TRACON

On a recent flight on December 15th I had an interesting experience
with our local Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON) group at Salt
Lake City. I was on the final leg of a 500K ridge flight that took me
through the 30nm Mode C veil several times. I monitor Approach Control
frequencies and Ogden Airport Tower when I am passing through the 30
veil and near Ogden. I usually don't try to report positions all the
time, but do give traffic advisors if I hear that any traffic may be in
my area. As I was ridge running on the rocks on a day with 30+ mph
winds and not in an area that power pilots were likely to want to be I
was mostly just monitoring during the flight.

I was just leaving Ogden Peak headed north when I heard a life flight
heli report they were going to be passing a few miles behind me. I
contacted Ogden Tower and gave them a traffic advisory of where I was
and my heading. The tower reported no conflicting traffic in my area
and thanked me for the advisory. A minute later he called me back and
said the TRACON had requested that I call them when I land. I asked if
he knew why, but all he could say was they requested I call.

As always any request like this is an unpleasant addition to your day.
I was sinking down the ridge and not focused on flying like I should
while trying to run through the flight in my mind to think of anything
I had done that would get me in trouble. The flight path I use on this
section of the ridge is technical and requires flight deep into the
mode C veil and a long section under class B airspace. I had been
careful to keep clear on all four passes under the class B. I had to
push it all out of my mind and focus on the last 50 miles home.

Once down I stopped by the local FBO to check the FAR/AIM so I would
have all the correct sections in case I was dealing with someone who
did not know the exceptions for gliders in the mode C veil. I called
and was put on hold the first time and asked to call back in a few
minutes. I was half tempted to say I had tried and leave it at that.
I decided I would try one more time and called back. I got someone to
answer this time and asked if they could tell me why I had been asked
to call. He asked who I was and rather than give my name I said I was
the glider pilot. He said the reason they asked me to call was it was
dangerous for me to fly where I was. I responded that I was aware of
traffic and was very vigilant when in the area. He asked if I had a
two-way radio. I wanted to reply, "duh, how did you know I was there
to begin with" but I was good and said yes and that I monitor 121.1
approach frequency and Ogden Tower when I am in the area. He said that
I had the right to fly there to which I replied yes I did thank you.

When I do call and give traffic advisories they seem to be fairly
uninterested to know where we are. The attitude appears to be we
don't want you near our airspace. SLC has four glider operations
surrounding it, with two of them inside the Mode C veil. Is this type
of intimidation common around other airports? I found it rather odd to
be requested to call when I had done nothing wrong.

Tim

Tim,

Intimidation is what you make of it. You might consider it an
opportunity to educate a controller who may not have had the chance to
deal directly with a glider pilot before.

I hope you invited him out to the gliderport for a ride, preferably one
along that very same segment of your 500k about which he was concerned.
At least set him up for a comparable ride with one of your CFIGs, if
you'd rather not do it yourself. Put the controller on your turf and you
may make a convert. At least you'll come away feeling more on an equal
footing and less like an intimidatee.

I'm looking forward to hearing from other pilots in your area that have
personal experiences with the local controllers.


Jack

----


Tim Taylor wrote:
On a recent flight on December 15th I had an interesting experience
with our local Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON) group at Salt
Lake City. I was on the final leg of a 500K ridge flight that took me
through the 30nm Mode C veil several times. I monitor Approach Control
frequencies and Ogden Airport Tower when I am passing through the 30
veil and near Ogden. I usually don't try to report positions all the
time, but do give traffic advisors if I hear that any traffic may be in
my area. As I was ridge running on the rocks on a day with 30+ mph
winds and not in an area that power pilots were likely to want to be I
was mostly just monitoring during the flight.

I was just leaving Ogden Peak headed north when I heard a life flight
heli report they were going to be passing a few miles behind me. I
contacted Ogden Tower and gave them a traffic advisory of where I was
and my heading. The tower reported no conflicting traffic in my area
and thanked me for the advisory. A minute later he called me back and
said the TRACON had requested that I call them when I land. I asked if
he knew why, but all he could say was they requested I call.

As always any request like this is an unpleasant addition to your day.
I was sinking down the ridge and not focused on flying like I should
while trying to run through the flight in my mind to think of anything
I had done that would get me in trouble. The flight path I use on this
section of the ridge is technical and requires flight deep into the
mode C veil and a long section under class B airspace. I had been
careful to keep clear on all four passes under the class B. I had to
push it all out of my mind and focus on the last 50 miles home.

Once down I stopped by the local FBO to check the FAR/AIM so I would
have all the correct sections in case I was dealing with someone who
did not know the exceptions for gliders in the mode C veil. I called
and was put on hold the first time and asked to call back in a few
minutes. I was half tempted to say I had tried and leave it at that.
I decided I would try one more time and called back. I got someone to
answer this time and asked if they could tell me why I had been asked
to call. He asked who I was and rather than give my name I said I was
the glider pilot. He said the reason they asked me to call was it was
dangerous for me to fly where I was. I responded that I was aware of
traffic and was very vigilant when in the area. He asked if I had a
two-way radio. I wanted to reply, "duh, how did you know I was there
to begin with" but I was good and said yes and that I monitor 121.1
approach frequency and Ogden Tower when I am in the area. He said that
I had the right to fly there to which I replied yes I did thank you.

When I do call and give traffic advisories they seem to be fairly
uninterested to know where we are. The attitude appears to be we
don't want you near our airspace. SLC has four glider operations
surrounding it, with two of them inside the Mode C veil. Is this type
of intimidation common around other airports? I found it rather odd to
be requested to call when I had done nothing wrong.

Tim

We fly withing the Mode C Veil, our airport is right on the outer ring of
the upper most shelf. Gliders can fly within the Mode C area, remaining
clear of the actual Class B airspace "up to the top of Class B or 10,000MSL
which ever is lower", as our Class B tops out at 9,000MSL, we have a waiver
agreement with climb windows (areas) to climb between 9-10K MSL, depending
on landing runways at the Class B airport.

This allows us to get above 10K MSL when striking out on cross country, we
have a great working relationship with the local TRACON, and they know where
to expect us.

BT

"Tim Taylor" wrote in message
ups.com...
On a recent flight on December 15th I had an interesting experience
with our local Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON) group at Salt
Lake City. I was on the final leg of a 500K ridge flight that took me
through the 30nm Mode C veil several times. I monitor Approach Control
frequencies and Ogden Airport Tower when I am passing through the 30
veil and near Ogden. I usually don't try to report positions all the
time, but do give traffic advisors if I hear that any traffic may be in
my area. As I was ridge running on the rocks on a day with 30+ mph
winds and not in an area that power pilots were likely to want to be I
was mostly just monitoring during the flight.

I was just leaving Ogden Peak headed north when I heard a life flight
heli report they were going to be passing a few miles behind me. I
contacted Ogden Tower and gave them a traffic advisory of where I was
and my heading. The tower reported no conflicting traffic in my area
and thanked me for the advisory. A minute later he called me back and
said the TRACON had requested that I call them when I land. I asked if
he knew why, but all he could say was they requested I call.

As always any request like this is an unpleasant addition to your day.
I was sinking down the ridge and not focused on flying like I should
while trying to run through the flight in my mind to think of anything
I had done that would get me in trouble. The flight path I use on this
section of the ridge is technical and requires flight deep into the
mode C veil and a long section under class B airspace. I had been
careful to keep clear on all four passes under the class B. I had to
push it all out of my mind and focus on the last 50 miles home.

Once down I stopped by the local FBO to check the FAR/AIM so I would
have all the correct sections in case I was dealing with someone who
did not know the exceptions for gliders in the mode C veil. I called
and was put on hold the first time and asked to call back in a few
minutes. I was half tempted to say I had tried and leave it at that.
I decided I would try one more time and called back. I got someone to
answer this time and asked if they could tell me why I had been asked
to call. He asked who I was and rather than give my name I said I was
the glider pilot. He said the reason they asked me to call was it was
dangerous for me to fly where I was. I responded that I was aware of
traffic and was very vigilant when in the area. He asked if I had a
two-way radio. I wanted to reply, "duh, how did you know I was there
to begin with" but I was good and said yes and that I monitor 121.1
approach frequency and Ogden Tower when I am in the area. He said that
I had the right to fly there to which I replied yes I did thank you.

When I do call and give traffic advisories they seem to be fairly
uninterested to know where we are. The attitude appears to be we
don't want you near our airspace. SLC has four glider operations
surrounding it, with two of them inside the Mode C veil. Is this type
of intimidation common around other airports? I found it rather odd to
be requested to call when I had done nothing wrong.

Tim

Hi Tim,
Let's analyze what happened to you. A professional med-evac pilot had a
close encounter with a glider (you) and reported it to TRACON. The
conversation probably went something like this, "Ogden, I just came
real close to a glider". What was implied, but not said was, I'm on a
IFR flight plan with flight following, in your area, What's going on
down there?
The controller probably replied, "I'll check into it, Sir". We can be
certain what he didn't say, "Yeah, we can't see those gliders, but they
have several waivers and letters of agreement with us. Looks like
everybody was legal. Sorry about that".
We have the same problems here with 3 active glider operations around
Reno International Airport. While monitoring Reno approach control, I
heard an inbound airliner blurt out, "There's a glider out here". Yep,
it was me, just outside class C airspace over Vagina City. On another
occasion I heard the sound of jet engines getting louder as I
frantically turned and tried to find the source of the noise.
So, what can we do? What we're doing right now, clearly isn't working.
We might be right (legal), but I don't want to be dead-right. The
controllers can't see us. Aircraft with TCAS can't paint us. The
solution is clear, those of us who operate around controlled airspace
like Salt Lake City and Reno must transmitt our location and altitude
to those charged with keeping seperation between all aircraft in their
area of responsibility. I'm installing a transponder and a PCAS. Glider
pilots around Reno without transponders are becoming a minority.
John Sinclair


Tim Taylor wrote:
On a recent flight on December 15th I had an interesting experience
with our local Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON) group at Salt
Lake City. I was on the final leg of a 500K ridge flight that took me
through the 30nm Mode C veil several times. I monitor Approach Control
frequencies and Ogden Airport Tower when I am passing through the 30
veil and near Ogden. I usually don't try to report positions all the
time, but do give traffic advisors if I hear that any traffic may be in
my area. As I was ridge running on the rocks on a day with 30+ mph
winds and not in an area that power pilots were likely to want to be I
was mostly just monitoring during the flight.

I was just leaving Ogden Peak headed north when I heard a life flight
heli report they were going to be passing a few miles behind me. I
contacted Ogden Tower and gave them a traffic advisory of where I was
and my heading. The tower reported no conflicting traffic in my area
and thanked me for the advisory. A minute later he called me back and
said the TRACON had requested that I call them when I land. I asked if
he knew why, but all he could say was they requested I call.

As always any request like this is an unpleasant addition to your day.
I was sinking down the ridge and not focused on flying like I should
while trying to run through the flight in my mind to think of anything
I had done that would get me in trouble. The flight path I use on this
section of the ridge is technical and requires flight deep into the
mode C veil and a long section under class B airspace. I had been
careful to keep clear on all four passes under the class B. I had to
push it all out of my mind and focus on the last 50 miles home.

Once down I stopped by the local FBO to check the FAR/AIM so I would
have all the correct sections in case I was dealing with someone who
did not know the exceptions for gliders in the mode C veil. I called
and was put on hold the first time and asked to call back in a few
minutes. I was half tempted to say I had tried and leave it at that.
I decided I would try one more time and called back. I got someone to
answer this time and asked if they could tell me why I had been asked
to call. He asked who I was and rather than give my name I said I was
the glider pilot. He said the reason they asked me to call was it was
dangerous for me to fly where I was. I responded that I was aware of
traffic and was very vigilant when in the area. He asked if I had a
two-way radio. I wanted to reply, "duh, how did you know I was there
to begin with" but I was good and said yes and that I monitor 121.1
approach frequency and Ogden Tower when I am in the area. He said that
I had the right to fly there to which I replied yes I did thank you.

When I do call and give traffic advisories they seem to be fairly
uninterested to know where we are. The attitude appears to be we
don't want you near our airspace. SLC has four glider operations
surrounding it, with two of them inside the Mode C veil. Is this type
of intimidation common around other airports? I found it rather odd to
be requested to call when I had done nothing wrong.

Tim

I hope you meant Virginia City

Has anyone found a cheap transponder that doesnt draw 2 or 3 amps? I
find it hard to justify paying half the money i spent on my glider for
a transponder. of course I see the advantages of having one and
certainly dont want to end up a splintered hole in the ground.

JJ Sinclair wrote:
Hi Tim,
Let's analyze what happened to you. A professional med-evac pilot had a
close encounter with a glider (you) and reported it to TRACON. The
conversation probably went something like this, "Ogden, I just came
real close to a glider". What was implied, but not said was, I'm on a
IFR flight plan with flight following, in your area, What's going on
down there?
The controller probably replied, "I'll check into it, Sir". We can be
certain what he didn't say, "Yeah, we can't see those gliders, but they
have several waivers and letters of agreement with us. Looks like
everybody was legal. Sorry about that".
We have the same problems here with 3 active glider operations around
Reno International Airport. While monitoring Reno approach control, I
heard an inbound airliner blurt out, "There's a glider out here". Yep,
it was me, just outside class C airspace over Vagina City. On another
occasion I heard the sound of jet engines getting louder as I
frantically turned and tried to find the source of the noise.
So, what can we do? What we're doing right now, clearly isn't working.
We might be right (legal), but I don't want to be dead-right. The
controllers can't see us. Aircraft with TCAS can't paint us. The
solution is clear, those of us who operate around controlled airspace
like Salt Lake City and Reno must transmitt our location and altitude
to those charged with keeping seperation between all aircraft in their
area of responsibility. I'm installing a transponder and a PCAS. Glider
pilots around Reno without transponders are becoming a minority.
John Sinclair


Tim Taylor wrote:
On a recent flight on December 15th I had an interesting experience
with our local Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON) group at Salt
Lake City. I was on the final leg of a 500K ridge flight that took me
through the 30nm Mode C veil several times. I monitor Approach Control
frequencies and Ogden Airport Tower when I am passing through the 30
veil and near Ogden. I usually don't try to report positions all the
time, but do give traffic advisors if I hear that any traffic may be in
my area. As I was ridge running on the rocks on a day with 30+ mph
winds and not in an area that power pilots were likely to want to be I
was mostly just monitoring during the flight.

I was just leaving Ogden Peak headed north when I heard a life flight
heli report they were going to be passing a few miles behind me. I
contacted Ogden Tower and gave them a traffic advisory of where I was
and my heading. The tower reported no conflicting traffic in my area
and thanked me for the advisory. A minute later he called me back and
said the TRACON had requested that I call them when I land. I asked if
he knew why, but all he could say was they requested I call.

As always any request like this is an unpleasant addition to your day.
I was sinking down the ridge and not focused on flying like I should
while trying to run through the flight in my mind to think of anything
I had done that would get me in trouble. The flight path I use on this
section of the ridge is technical and requires flight deep into the
mode C veil and a long section under class B airspace. I had been
careful to keep clear on all four passes under the class B. I had to
push it all out of my mind and focus on the last 50 miles home.

Once down I stopped by the local FBO to check the FAR/AIM so I would
have all the correct sections in case I was dealing with someone who
did not know the exceptions for gliders in the mode C veil. I called
and was put on hold the first time and asked to call back in a few
minutes. I was half tempted to say I had tried and leave it at that.
I decided I would try one more time and called back. I got someone to
answer this time and asked if they could tell me why I had been asked
to call. He asked who I was and rather than give my name I said I was
the glider pilot. He said the reason they asked me to call was it was
dangerous for me to fly where I was. I responded that I was aware of
traffic and was very vigilant when in the area. He asked if I had a
two-way radio. I wanted to reply, "duh, how did you know I was there
to begin with" but I was good and said yes and that I monitor 121.1
approach frequency and Ogden Tower when I am in the area. He said that
I had the right to fly there to which I replied yes I did thank you.

When I do call and give traffic advisories they seem to be fairly
uninterested to know where we are. The attitude appears to be we
don't want you near our airspace. SLC has four glider operations
surrounding it, with two of them inside the Mode C veil. Is this type
of intimidation common around other airports? I found it rather odd to
be requested to call when I had done nothing wrong.

Tim

wrote:
I hope you meant Virginia City

Has anyone found a cheap transponder that doesnt draw 2 or 3 amps? I
find it hard to justify paying half the money i spent on my glider for
a transponder. of course I see the advantages of having one and
certainly dont want to end up a splintered hole in the ground.

Microair is the cheapest, but I personally would spend the few hundred
bucks extra and get the 175W Becker at just under $2000US. You'd still
need an encoder, antenna, etc.

Marc

I think JJ was referring to the most popular product sold in the
neighborhood.

I'll second the vote for the Becker. Encoders are only $200 or so and
if you have something other than a carbon fuselage you should check out
the dipole antenna that Tim (and others) sell for about $100. Needs no
reflector plate.

Bob

Marc Ramsey wrote:
wrote:
I hope you meant Virginia City

Has anyone found a cheap transponder that doesnt draw 2 or 3 amps? I
find it hard to justify paying half the money i spent on my glider for
a transponder. of course I see the advantages of having one and
certainly dont want to end up a splintered hole in the ground.

Microair is the cheapest, but I personally would spend the few hundred
bucks extra and get the 175W Becker at just under $2000US. You'd still
need an encoder, antenna, etc.

Marc

JJ,

Actually the med-evac was about 5 miles behind me and 3-5k lower. He
was not a factor.

The reason I raised the issue was mine was not the first time I have
seen TRACON do interesting things to gliders. Back in September I was
about 50 miles NE of SLC when TRACON came on 123.3 and called for the
glider NE of SLC. I responded with position and they said it wasn't me
they were trying to contact. It was a glider out of Morgan that was
above the class B within about 10 miles of his home airport with a
Transponder letting down for landing after we had been out at 17K
running some cloud streets. They wanted him to leave the area because
they didn't like where he was. So in that case the Transponder gave
them position and altitude and they were going to get him out of their
area rather than work around him.

So not sure that transponders are the total solution, there has to be a
working relationship where each side understands the goals and needs of
the other. Not just that TRACON gets all the airspace and everyone
else should leave.

Tim

Transponders are not the total solution, but they are an important first
step.

Mike Schumann

"Tim Taylor" wrote in message
oups.com...
JJ,

Actually the med-evac was about 5 miles behind me and 3-5k lower. He
was not a factor.

The reason I raised the issue was mine was not the first time I have
seen TRACON do interesting things to gliders. Back in September I was
about 50 miles NE of SLC when TRACON came on 123.3 and called for the
glider NE of SLC. I responded with position and they said it wasn't me
they were trying to contact. It was a glider out of Morgan that was
above the class B within about 10 miles of his home airport with a
Transponder letting down for landing after we had been out at 17K
running some cloud streets. They wanted him to leave the area because
they didn't like where he was. So in that case the Transponder gave
them position and altitude and they were going to get him out of their
area rather than work around him.

So not sure that transponders are the total solution, there has to be a
working relationship where each side understands the goals and needs of
the other. Not just that TRACON gets all the airspace and everyone
else should leave.

Tim




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Tim Taylor wrote:
I was just leaving Ogden Peak headed north when I heard a life flight
heli report they were going to be passing a few miles behind me. I
contacted Ogden Tower and gave them a traffic advisory of where I was
and my heading. The tower reported no conflicting traffic in my area
and thanked me for the advisory. A minute later he called me back and
said the TRACON had requested that I call them when I land. I asked if
he knew why, but all he could say was they requested I call.
Tim

Tim,
I do quite a bit of flying out of Cedar Valley and Morgan.I ussually
have very good service from Approach Control and I always call or at
least monitor when I am anywhere near an arival corridor and they are
always very helpful.I cannot comment about Tracon though.Some of what
you have experienced may be the residual effects of one of our intreped
government representitives at the local FSDO who tried to interprate
the FARs to read that we MUST have a transponder to fly over the class
B.