Flight Computer: Borgelt B500 or LX1600?

Hi All

Our trusty Zander SR800 is rather sick. So if we can't get it fixed I
would like to know what we might be looking at for a replacement.

The Zander has a very pleasant electronic/audio vario with digital
averager, speed to fly and final glide calculator. It was top notch in its
day - which was long before GPS was invented.

It seems the Borgelt B500 and LX1600 offer a similar level of
functionality to the Zander. Obviously they should be interfaced with GPS
and PDA. Are there pilots out there who have flown with either of these
two who would care to comment on their virtues?

One feature which both of these have is the ability to provide
airspeed data to a PDA which in turn can determine the wind vector by
comparing airspeed and GPS data - without having to stop and thermal. We
regularly fly ridges where knowledge of the wind speed and direction is
essential and flying 50 or 100 km without turning it the norm, so this
feature could be very attractive.

Has anybody used this feature? Does it work as advertised or are there
problems and limitations one should be aware of?

Finally if the budget is too stretched and we trade down to a Borgelt
B400 or similar, and feed only GPS data to the PDA, what functionality
will we be losing out on?

Are there other brands in the same price range that we should we be
looking at?


Thanks


Ian

Ian,

I sell both the LX1600 and the B500 and have flown with both. They are
both excellent systems. The B500 has a couple additional features.
It comes in both 57mm and 80mm size. It comes with a 4hz GPS but this
is not a data logger. WinPilot PRO has an internal logger that can be
used. An IGC logger can also be connected to the system (VL, colibri,
etc.) The GCD, (glare shield display) of the B500 also has a simple NAV
system seperate from the PDA system. I have found this very useful for
what ifs around a couple of turnpoints, without distrubing the task in
the PDA.


The B500 system in my glider includues a B500, B2000, Ipaq 4705 running
WinPilot PRO.

If you trade down to the B400, you lose: Speed to fly, and direct
winds. The B400 is a very nice audio TE vario with a battery backup.

You should also look at the CAI 302, 303, and PDA it is a little more
expensive but is an excellent system.

All of these items can be seen on my website.

Please call or email if you have additional questions.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

Ian wrote:
Hi All

Our trusty Zander SR800 is rather sick. So if we can't get it fixed I
would like to know what we might be looking at for a replacement.

The Zander has a very pleasant electronic/audio vario with digital
averager, speed to fly and final glide calculator. It was top notch in its
day - which was long before GPS was invented.

It seems the Borgelt B500 and LX1600 offer a similar level of
functionality to the Zander. Obviously they should be interfaced with GPS
and PDA. Are there pilots out there who have flown with either of these
two who would care to comment on their virtues?

One feature which both of these have is the ability to provide
airspeed data to a PDA which in turn can determine the wind vector by
comparing airspeed and GPS data - without having to stop and thermal. We
regularly fly ridges where knowledge of the wind speed and direction is
essential and flying 50 or 100 km without turning it the norm, so this
feature could be very attractive.

Has anybody used this feature? Does it work as advertised or are there
problems and limitations one should be aware of?

Finally if the budget is too stretched and we trade down to a Borgelt
B400 or similar, and feed only GPS data to the PDA, what functionality
will we be losing out on?

Are there other brands in the same price range that we should we be
looking at?


Thanks


Ian

On Dec 27, 1:07 pm, Ian wrote:
One feature which both of these have is the ability to provide
airspeed data to a PDA which in turn can determine the wind vector by
comparing airspeed and GPS data - without having to stop and thermal. We
regularly fly ridges where knowledge of the wind speed and direction is
essential and flying 50 or 100 km without turning it the norm, so this
feature could be very attractive.

You also need a comapss sensor if you want to determine windspeed
without making any major course changes.

The CAI 302, for example, computes wind by looking for a couple of
straight vectors that are different by some angle - perhaps 60-90
degrees. When on a long glide, I often find the vector wind is
different than the instantaneous headwind component as displayed by
GlideNav. To correct this, I change heading by 45 degrees, fly
straight for 10-15 seconds, then turn the other way 90 degrees and
again fly 10-15 seconds straight, then turn back to the original
course.

As I understand it, compass sensors are difficult and expensive to "get
right", so for now, most winds are derived this way.

The 302 provides airspeed and wind data to the PDA.

-Tom

The compass in my Zander SR 940 works very well. Maybe you should have a
look at www.zander-variometer.de or at www.sdi-variometer.de .


5Z schrieb:

On Dec 27, 1:07 pm, Ian wrote:
One feature which both of these have is the ability to provide
airspeed data to a PDA which in turn can determine the wind vector by
comparing airspeed and GPS data - without having to stop and thermal. We
regularly fly ridges where knowledge of the wind speed and direction is
essential and flying 50 or 100 km without turning it the norm, so this
feature could be very attractive.

You also need a comapss sensor if you want to determine windspeed
without making any major course changes.

The CAI 302, for example, computes wind by looking for a couple of
straight vectors that are different by some angle - perhaps 60-90
degrees. When on a long glide, I often find the vector wind is
different than the instantaneous headwind component as displayed by
GlideNav. To correct this, I change heading by 45 degrees, fly
straight for 10-15 seconds, then turn the other way 90 degrees and
again fly 10-15 seconds straight, then turn back to the original
course.

As I understand it, compass sensors are difficult and expensive to "get
right", so for now, most winds are derived this way.

The 302 provides airspeed and wind data to the PDA.

-Tom

5Z wrote:

On Dec 27, 1:07 pm, Ian wrote:
One feature which both of these have is the ability to provide
airspeed data to a PDA which in turn can determine the wind vector by
comparing airspeed and GPS data - without having to stop and thermal. We
regularly fly ridges where knowledge of the wind speed and direction is
essential and flying 50 or 100 km without turning it the norm, so this
feature could be very attractive.

You also need a comapss sensor if you want to determine windspeed
without making any major course changes.

My SDI C4 manages to compute windspeed during a straight glide without a
compass as well as when circling in a thermal. In thermals it calculates
wind from the way the circles drift. In a straight line I think its
comparing GPS data with its pitot input: the wind speed seems consistent
between the two methods, but the calculated direction differs by 20
degrees or so with the straight line direction being less accurate.


The CAI 302, for example, computes wind by looking for a couple of
straight vectors that are different by some angle - perhaps 60-90
degrees. When on a long glide, I often find the vector wind is
different than the instantaneous headwind component as displayed by
GlideNav. To correct this, I change heading by 45 degrees, fly
straight for 10-15 seconds, then turn the other way 90 degrees and
again fly 10-15 seconds straight, then turn back to the original
course.

As I understand it, compass sensors are difficult and expensive to "get
right", so for now, most winds are derived this way.

The 302 provides airspeed and wind data to the PDA.

-Tom



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 07:51:11 -0800, Richard wrote:

I sell both the LX1600 and the B500 and have flown with both. They are
both excellent systems. The B500 has a couple additional features. It
comes in both 57mm and 80mm size. It comes with a 4hz GPS but this is
not a data logger. WinPilot PRO has an internal logger that can be
used. An IGC logger can also be connected to the system (VL, colibri,
etc.) The GCD, (glare shield display) of the B500 also has a simple NAV
system seperate from the PDA system. I have found this very useful for
what ifs around a couple of turnpoints, without distrubing the task in
the PDA.

Thanks for the input. I should have mentioned that we already have
Volkslogger for "certified" logs and a Flarm that keeps un-certified
logs if we ever need a backup. I use the Volkslogger for basic navigation
but I am playing with a Palm PDA with Soaring Pilot software with a
connection to the Volkslogger.

My philosophy is that the logger should be kept separate from other
navigation equipment as by design it has to be sealed and it cannot accept
user uploaded firmware upgrades. Of course it can be used as a GPS engine.

A couple of questions regarding the Borgelt B500:

- If it is operating "stand alone", without the PDA, can it calculate a
direct wind speed indication and display it on it's own panel display, or
must this be done by the PDA.

- Why did Borgelt replace the B50 with the B500 which includes a GPS
engine and is US$300 dearer. (We already have 2 GPS engines on board, it
seems a bit of an overkill to buy a 3rd). I am sure Mike had good
motivation.

If you trade down to the B400, you lose: Speed to fly, and direct
winds. The B400 is a very nice audio TE vario with a battery backup.

I can get speed to fly indications from the PDA and the Macready ring on
our mechanical varios. (With ridge flying we "speed to fly" theory is not
really applicable anyway.) Indirect wind and final glide can be had
from a PDA/GPS combination. I am just trying to justify spending the extra
$'s.

Is there anybody out there who flies with a B50, B500, Lx1600 or
similar and can go on record and say that the GPS/airspeed based wind
speed calculations really work - particularly while ridge flying.

You should also look at the CAI 302, 303, and PDA it is a little more
expensive but is an excellent system.

How would you put together a CAI based system without a CAI secure logger?
(We already have the Volkslogger).

www.craggyaero.com

Just had a look at your website.


Thanks


Ian

PS: Is it still possible to get a Zander SR800 overhauled/repaired? If
so, where?

Ian,

It does calculate the direct winds and displays on the GCD

Please see Borgelt's site and the manual for all the features:
http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/

Borgelt plans the following software upgrades:

Thermal centering algorithm for two channel audio.
Inversion of display on GCD for those who wish the controls on the
right hand side of the GCD.

Hardware upgrades: SD card reader for the GCD to allow an unlimited
turnpoint database.

The B50 was replaced to implement new manufacturing technology and to
allow the implementation of additional functions. I suspect it was
getting hard to get the older components.
I believe he wanted the flexabilty of the 4 Htz GPS to implement the
thermal centering and maybe additional features in the future. The PDA
uses the 4 Hz GPS signal for navigation, the Volkslogger is relagated
to a Logger. The WinPilot software also has an internal IGC PDA logger
and can be used for OLC, and most contests.

You are correct with what you lose with the B400. In addition the
averager display, netto or relative vario and the new function thermal
centering audio.

If using WinPilot PRO you would not get the climb maximizer The
Volkslogger is connected to the B500 system and is power by the B500
Power Supply. The PDA is also power by the same supply.


The CAI 302 has an internal IGC logger so you really can not remove the
logger.

Thanks,

Richard
www.craggyaero.com


Ian wrote:
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 07:51:11 -0800, Richard wrote:

I sell both the LX1600 and the B500 and have flown with both. They are
both excellent systems. The B500 has a couple additional features. It
comes in both 57mm and 80mm size. It comes with a 4hz GPS but this is
not a data logger. WinPilot PRO has an internal logger that can be
used. An IGC logger can also be connected to the system (VL, colibri,
etc.) The GCD, (glare shield display) of the B500 also has a simple NAV
system seperate from the PDA system. I have found this very useful for
what ifs around a couple of turnpoints, without distrubing the task in
the PDA.

Thanks for the input. I should have mentioned that we already have
Volkslogger for "certified" logs and a Flarm that keeps un-certified
logs if we ever need a backup. I use the Volkslogger for basic navigation
but I am playing with a Palm PDA with Soaring Pilot software with a
connection to the Volkslogger.

My philosophy is that the logger should be kept separate from other
navigation equipment as by design it has to be sealed and it cannot accept
user uploaded firmware upgrades. Of course it can be used as a GPS engine.

A couple of questions regarding the Borgelt B500:

- If it is operating "stand alone", without the PDA, can it calculate a
direct wind speed indication and display it on it's own panel display, or
must this be done by the PDA.

- Why did Borgelt replace the B50 with the B500 which includes a GPS
engine and is US$300 dearer. (We already have 2 GPS engines on board, it
seems a bit of an overkill to buy a 3rd). I am sure Mike had good
motivation.

If you trade down to the B400, you lose: Speed to fly, and direct
winds. The B400 is a very nice audio TE vario with a battery backup.

I can get speed to fly indications from the PDA and the Macready ring on
our mechanical varios. (With ridge flying we "speed to fly" theory is not
really applicable anyway.) Indirect wind and final glide can be had
from a PDA/GPS combination. I am just trying to justify spending the extra
$'s.

Is there anybody out there who flies with a B50, B500, Lx1600 or
similar and can go on record and say that the GPS/airspeed based wind
speed calculations really work - particularly while ridge flying.

You should also look at the CAI 302, 303, and PDA it is a little more
expensive but is an excellent system.

How would you put together a CAI based system without a CAI secure logger?
(We already have the Volkslogger).

www.craggyaero.com

Just had a look at your website.


Thanks


Ian

PS: Is it still possible to get a Zander SR800 overhauled/repaired? If
so, where?

Have you looked at the SN10, integrates with the Volkslogger
and a PDA if required. Pleasant audio tones and reputedly
very good at calculating wind in straight flight.

John