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#1
July 3rd 03, 02:53 AM
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Cowardice in Battle
"....... I'm going to die today......". "I'm going to die today," he said. We had just left the briefing tent and Lt. Jones (not his real name) walked along with me. His comment came as a shock. "No you're not," I said. He shook his head in despair and choked out " I have a wife and a kid and I'm know I'm going to die today and the war is almost over. I'm not going to fly". I grabbed him by the arm hard. " Look, if you refuse to fly you'll go to Leavenworth for 20 years. Then what will you wife and kid do? Besides, today will probably be a milk run and you'll come back fine". I didn't quite believe it, but I said it anyway. Now one of the 6x6's that takes crews to the flight line pulled up. I pushed Jones toward it and boosted him in. He flew the mission. The mission wasn't quite a milk run but we had no losses and all came back fine. Jones never spoke to me again. Any time we met he would avoid eye contact. If I were in the officers club he would either leave or sit as far away as possible with his back to me. I guess he was just too embarrassed about what he revealed. That incident only took two or three minutes at the most. And I haven't thought about it since that day, until a recent incident brought it to mind. I was always glad that I could help him through a bad time. I wonder how Jones feels about that moment when he thinks about it today? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Arthur Kramer Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer 
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#3
July 3rd 03, 05:02 AM
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"ArtKramr" wrote in message ... "....... I'm going to die today......". "I'm going to die today," he said. We had just left the briefing tent and Lt. Jones (not his real name) walked along with me. His comment came as a shock. "No you're not," I said. He shook his head in despair and choked out " I have a wife and a kid and I'm know I'm going to die today and the war is almost over. I'm not going to fly". I grabbed him by the arm hard. " Look, if you refuse to fly you'll go to Leavenworth for 20 years. Then what will you wife and kid do? Besides, today will probably be a milk run and you'll come back fine". I didn't quite believe it, but I said it anyway. Now one of the 6x6's that takes crews to the flight line pulled up. I pushed Jones toward it and boosted him in. He flew the mission. The mission wasn't quite a milk run but we had no losses and all came back fine. Jones never spoke to me again. Any time we met he would avoid eye contact. If I were in the officers club he would either leave or sit as far away as possible with his back to me. I guess he was just too embarrassed about what he revealed. That incident only took two or three minutes at the most. And I haven't thought about it since that day, until a recent incident brought it to mind. I was always glad that I could help him through a bad time. I wonder how Jones feels about that moment when he thinks about it today? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Arthur Kramer Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer Everyone has a "limit.....a "maximum effort" as they say. No one has ever really clearly defined it as far as I know. The guys I know have told me they just somehow kept going. Some would even throw up as they walked out of the ready room or as they climbed into their planes. I've heard it all through the years I guess. One thing I think I've come to know during my many talks with close personal friends who have come out of combat, is that I'm very careful in considering the coward factor...and so, I might add, are many of these combat veterans. Many broke down themselves at times, when things just piled on to the point where they thought they were coming apart. Most got it together, both alone, but also with the help of a friend or two. I wouldn't be too quick to condemn this "Lt. Jones". I think I'd first have to consider how many missions he had already flown. Then I think I'd give serious consideration to the fact that after he talked to you and spilled his guts, he got on the aircraft and flew the mission. Who knows what a man's limit is? I don't. I do know that fear can be a powerful thing, especially when it's cumulative and constant. So where does this leave you with Lt. Jones? Well, unless you know something additional about him that directly relates to cowardice, I'd cut him a little slack. Now what does this mean?To me it means that every man in your squadron was an individual, each facing his own demons in his own way. Men in such a predicament seldom share their "demons" with their fellows. I'm sure you remember this more so than I. There must have been times you were scared right on up to your personal limit, but somehow you sucked it in and kept going. I believe there's something within a person in combat that keeps him going beyond fear for self, because the fear of failing, and the fear of failing the others, especially on a bomber crew, is actually greater than the personal fear. I think this guy just reached his limit before you did, and you were there to help him through it. If I were you, I'd just try and understand what happened and accept it without any deep deductive reasoning. It's unfortunately the price sometimes, of helping someone through a crisis like the one you have described, where someone has allowed you to look deep within their most personal fear, that afterward, they find further contact difficult. I would be interested to know how Lt. Jones made it through the rest of his tour? Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
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#4
July 3rd 03, 05:45 AM
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Subject: Cowardice in Battle
From: "Dudley Henriques" Date: 7/2/03 9:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: nk.net "ArtKramr" wrote in message ... "....... I'm going to die today......". "I'm going to die today," he said. We had just left the briefing tent and Lt. Jones (not his real name) walked along with me. His comment came as a shock. "No you're not," I said. He shook his head in despair and choked out " I have a wife and a kid and I'm know I'm going to die today and the war is almost over. I'm not going to fly". I grabbed him by the arm hard. " Look, if you refuse to fly you'll go to Leavenworth for 20 years. Then what will you wife and kid do? Besides, today will probably be a milk run and you'll come back fine". I didn't quite believe it, but I said it anyway. Now one of the 6x6's that takes crews to the flight line pulled up. I pushed Jones toward it and boosted him in. He flew the mission. The mission wasn't quite a milk run but we had no losses and all came back fine. Jones never spoke to me again. Any time we met he would avoid eye contact. If I were in the officers club he would either leave or sit as far away as possible with his back to me. I guess he was just too embarrassed about what he revealed. That incident only took two or three minutes at the most. And I haven't thought about it since that day, until a recent incident brought it to mind. I was always glad that I could help him through a bad time. I wonder how Jones feels about that moment when he thinks about it today? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Arthur Kramer Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer Everyone has a "limit.....a "maximum effort" as they say. No one has ever really clearly defined it as far as I know. The guys I know have told me they just somehow kept going. Some would even throw up as they walked out of the ready room or as they climbed into their planes. I've heard it all through the years I guess. One thing I think I've come to know during my many talks with close personal friends who have come out of combat, is that I'm very careful in considering the coward factor...and so, I might add, are many of these combat veterans. Many broke down themselves at times, when things just piled on to the point where they thought they were coming apart. Most got it together, both alone, but also with the help of a friend or two. I wouldn't be too quick to condemn this "Lt. Jones". I think I'd first have to consider how many missions he had already flown. Then I think I'd give serious consideration to the fact that after he talked to you and spilled his guts, he got on the aircraft and flew the mission. Who knows what a man's limit is? I don't. I do know that fear can be a powerful thing, especially when it's cumulative and constant. So where does this leave you with Lt. Jones? Well, unless you know something additional about him that directly relates to cowardice, I'd cut him a little slack. Now what does this mean?To me it means that every man in your squadron was an individual, each facing his own demons in his own way. Men in such a predicament seldom share their "demons" with their fellows. I'm sure you remember this more so than I. There must have been times you were scared right on up to your personal limit, but somehow you sucked it in and kept going. I believe there's something within a person in combat that keeps him going beyond fear for self, because the fear of failing, and the fear of failing the others, especially on a bomber crew, is actually greater than the personal fear. I think this guy just reached his limit before you did, and you were there to help him through it. If I were you, I'd just try and understand what happened and accept it without any deep deductive reasoning. It's unfortunately the price sometimes, of helping someone through a crisis like the one you have described, where someone has allowed you to look deep within their most personal fear, that afterward, they find further contact difficult. I would be interested to know how Lt. Jones made it through the rest of his tour? Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired I am telling the story as it happened as fear has been a subject around here from time to time. I think the point is that as frightened as he was, he realised that not flying was a worse alternative than flying.This is a story that raises emotions. Anyone who has doubts about his own courage in battle identifies and is threatened by it and reacts accordingly. They either attack the story or attack me for relating it. In the many E-mails I get for my website a large number express doubt and question how well they would have fared had they been with us on those missions. And you can read the self-doubt in every line. I assure them they would have done fine. I always thought it was the polite thing to do. But I Never would have encouraged him not to fly. If I have to fly, so does he. No free lunch, no free rides.Ever. For anyone. If I have to go, then you have to go. Civilians don't understand that, but I am sure you do Dudley. .. Arthur Kramer Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
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#5
July 3rd 03, 06:23 PM
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#6
July 3rd 03, 06:33 PM
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Subject: Cowardice in Battle
From: (Crusader561) Date: 7/3/03 10:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: (ArtKramr) wrote in message ... "....... I'm going to die today......". [deletions] I'm curious as to why you label this anecdote "cowardice"? It seems to me that his actions demonstrate the exact opposite characteristic. In spite of his fear he went on the mission. If the guy **** his pants, vomited, bawled his eyes out, and cried for mama before every mission but still flew them and did his duty it still would not be cowardice. If you think of the level of fear he had to overcome to fly that mission he exhibited far more courage than yourself that day. Sometimes I just don't get you at all Art. And what is your expertise on courage? Tell me about it. Arthur Kramer Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
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#7
July 3rd 03, 06:52 PM
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Subject: Cowardice in Battle
From: nt (Gordon) Date: 7/3/03 9:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: I wouldn't put "Lt. Jones" in the coward category - given enough opportunities facing mortal danger, men develop cracks. Day 1 of SERE training, the instructors explain "John Wayne is dead", i.e., there is no such thing as an unbreakable soul. I am glad that the experiences you had did not break you, but given the ferocity of the conflict, it should be a point of compassion to understand that other men may have had lower breaking points - it doesn't relegate all such men to the ranks of the craven cowards. There are levels of course. LMF (coward) for those pilots and crews that intentionally bombed the Channel or took some other easy way out; the "twitch" for those men progressively losing their SA and flying skills while endangering the other airmen in their units by making poor choices as a result of too many missions in combat. Is that better than raising your hand to say "I got the shakes real bad today, Doc", and missing a single mission? Art, I had a similar situation - not combat, but one where I was flying in a very unsafe environment, to the point we had fatal accidents within our aircraft type with sickening regularity. After one particularly nasty crash killed some of our more popular squadronmates, a ******* that was overseas decided to "un-volunteer" for night flying - he was immediately grounded and never flew again. We ostrasized him completely and his actions directly screwed me up, personally, for the following year. I -hated- that guy. Deep in what's left of my soul, still do. I mean, how can you just QUIT when folks are expecting you to perform? Several years later, I was out of the military and scouting for a new career, which included ride-alongs with ambulances and paramedic/firefighters. I thought it was a perfect fit, until two of our first three calls included dead kids. I don't think of myself as a coward, but I knew at that moment that I wasn't psychologically strong enough to continue. I guess some of the guys on that rig would have reason to think of me as a coward, whether right or wrong. I have to accept that the man I continue to hate for quitting was at the same place I reached, looking down at a kid's scattered remains. Tolerating the weaknesses of those around you is a human quality every bit as important as bravery - most people do not spend 75+ years demonstrating continuous acts of bravery, but all of us have to deal with the limitations of those around us, every day. All of that said, Lt. Jones probably did benefit from your boot in his ass that day. I'd hate to think that friends couldn't support each other like that in moments of weakness, without permanently earning the title of coward. v/r Gordon He wasn't a coward,He only had a moment of fear that was about to destroy him. And fear in a unit spreads like wildfire. Had he refused to fly he would have instanatly lost every friend in the unit he ever had. He would have been an obrect of contempt and derision. What I did was not just for him, it was for all of us as well. And had you been in my place, you would have done exactly as I did. I only put the story under cowardice because that has been an ongoing subject around here for some time now. I wonder how he thinks about himself now when he thinks back 60 years? I would love to know. Remember he wouldn't talk to me or face me after that incident. So I wonder if he thinks I did him a favor or not. By the way, I repeated this incident to no one in the goup. I didn't even mention it to my pilot and copilot even though we were very close. I mention it here and on my website because I think it part of war and worth mentioning. And human values are a good beak from the endless techy numbers and statistics that grow rather quickly tiresome. Arthur Kramer Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
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#8
July 3rd 03, 07:36 PM
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Had he refused to fly he would have
instanatly lost every friend in the unit he ever had. He would have been an obrect of contempt and derision. What I did was not just for him, it was for all of us as well. And had you been in my place, you would have done exactly as I did. I agree. In fact, I did precisely the same thing to the guy that screwed me up by quitting. I didn't care that he screwed up my well-planned tour of duty, I was enraged by the fact that he had accepted the risks of flying and then decided he was too good to risk his own neck. Given that we weren't in combat and faced less than 1000th of the danger that you did, I'd say that what motivated him was a baser, more self-serving act of cowardice than your Lt. Jones - we all felt this guy was using the recent fatal crash as a excuse to hide behind. His idea was that he would continue to fly day missions - which, he judged, was safe enough that he would not be endangering a precious human life (such as his own) - while the rather more exhilerating night missions would have to be flown by someone else. I guess that tells you what he thought of the guys he flew with. My reaction was to insist that the "night" guy flew nothing but days while I covered the other pink and dark flights. I spent the time I was assigned to his detachment almost continuously barking at the 'quitter' because I felt shame that he was one of us. Honestly, if it was after a period of combat, I think I could have accepted his skittishness, but after sucking up years of Navy pay to do a specific, rather dangerous job, just quitting while his comrades were deployed overseas seemed the very pinnacle of self-centered callousness. I only put the story under cowardice because that has been an ongoing subject around here for some time now. I wonder how he thinks about himself now when he thinks back 60 years? I would love to know. Remember he wouldn't talk to me or face me after that incident. So I wonder if he thinks I did him a favor or not. By the way, I repeated this incident to no one in the goup. I didn't even mention it to my pilot and copilot even though we were very close. I mention it here and on my website because I think it part of war and worth mentioning. And human values are a good beak from the endless techy numbers and statistics that grow rather quickly tiresome. Yep. v/r Gordon
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#9
July 3rd 03, 08:11 PM
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ArtKramr wrote:
I mention it here and on my website because I think it part of war and worth mentioning. And human values are a good beak from the endless techy numbers and statistics that grow rather quickly tiresome. Context is everything! Sitting here nice and comfy, perhaps worrying about finishing a project on time or wondering what you want to do for the coming weekend, it is very easy to be compassionate and patient with friends or acquaintances or actions. In another context, patience and "compassion" might cost too much! Get more into a "me or them" environment and see how much of a beast resides in all of us! We like to think social qualities have value irrespective of environment, and perhaps they do, but when times are tough...really, really tough...a little savagery may be what it takes to make it through the difficulties. Savage in behavior or savage in psychology or both. Lots of people now look on Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings in entirely negative terms. That largely wasn't the case in 1945 in the US and any country that was going to have its people fighting in an invasion of the Japanese mainland. Were the people of 1945 a lot more savage and brutal than we are today? I doubt it. Just different contexts for making judgements. SMH
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#10
July 3rd 03, 08:12 PM
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"ArtKramr" wrote
From: (Crusader561) Sometimes I just don't get you at all Art. And what is your expertise on courage? Tell me about it. It doesn't matter. Your story is indicative of a personality that just has to wrench their arms to pat themselves on the back. I think you are less than the man who you fictionalize to make yourself into a hero. Keep working on your fiction, you're style remains too juvenile for adult consumption. I would think 8 year old kids would probably understand the bravado, and drinking in bars to prove yourself a "man."
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