Newbie question about the spar and building

I'm very new to all this; isn't the spar on a Wittman Tailwind or
Buttercup a solid piece of spruce with dimensions being something like
2 inches wide x 5 inches thick x 5 feet long. The Tailwind spar kit on
the Aircraft Spruce Inc. web site doesn't list any piece of wood this
big...see the link to the spar kit for the Wittman Tailwind.....

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/builde...hp?PN=02-08500


I owned a Neismith Cougar project once, so I know that the ribs were
attached to something like a "main beam," the spar. Also the Buttercup
materials list on Earl Luce's web site also does not list any piece of
lumber that to me would be the spar, the big long "beam" that gives the
wing its support.

As a potential builder, I really like the performance, appearance and
materials to build airplanes like the Tailwind or Buttercup. It seems
though that these older "rag and tube" types require more expertise and
skills than something like the newer composite types like the Cozy or
Long-EZ. Building a Cozy isn't easy but the skills necessary are less
complicated. It seems to me that building the older "rag and tube"
types is a real craft, requiring more skills and not as simple as
building a composite airplane. The Tailwind type aircraft require the
builder to know about wood, fabric, and welding while the composite
airplane uses the same technique throughout, that being the covering of
foam with fiberglass and lots of filling and sanding, filling and
sanding. I don't intend to insult anyone here as I myself am thinking
maybe of building a composite airplane, but could you say that a
composite project is, in a way, "Aircraft Building for Dummies?" The
Cozy MK IV for example comes with a detailed construction manual while
the Wittman Tailwind plans for example do not.

I know EAA has a course on welding and fabric covering and the Tony
Bingelis books and internet are also helpful. I am just wondering how
difficult it would be for a new guy, willing to learn (but not crash)
to acquire the skills and missing information to build something like a
Buttercup or Tailwind.

Thanks,
Randy

On 20 Jan 2007 01:18:49 -0800, "Randy" wrote:

I'm very new to all this; isn't the spar on a Wittman Tailwind or
Buttercup a solid piece of spruce with dimensions being something like
2 inches wide x 5 inches thick x 5 feet long. The Tailwind spar kit on
the Aircraft Spruce Inc. web site doesn't list any piece of wood this
big...see the link to the spar kit for the Wittman Tailwind.....

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/builde...hp?PN=02-08500


I owned a Neismith Cougar project once, so I know that the ribs were
attached to something like a "main beam," the spar. Also the Buttercup
materials list on Earl Luce's web site also does not list any piece of
lumber that to me would be the spar, the big long "beam" that gives the
wing its support.

As a potential builder, I really like the performance, appearance and
materials to build airplanes like the Tailwind or Buttercup. It seems
though that these older "rag and tube" types require more expertise and
skills than something like the newer composite types like the Cozy or
Long-EZ. Building a Cozy isn't easy but the skills necessary are less
complicated. It seems to me that building the older "rag and tube"
types is a real craft, requiring more skills and not as simple as
building a composite airplane. The Tailwind type aircraft require the
builder to know about wood, fabric, and welding while the composite
airplane uses the same technique throughout, that being the covering of
foam with fiberglass and lots of filling and sanding, filling and
sanding. I don't intend to insult anyone here as I myself am thinking
maybe of building a composite airplane, but could you say that a
composite project is, in a way, "Aircraft Building for Dummies?" The
Cozy MK IV for example comes with a detailed construction manual while
the Wittman Tailwind plans for example do not.

I know EAA has a course on welding and fabric covering and the Tony
Bingelis books and internet are also helpful. I am just wondering how
difficult it would be for a new guy, willing to learn (but not crash)
to acquire the skills and missing information to build something like a
Buttercup or Tailwind.

Thanks,
Randy

were you taught by women?
the sort that have no understanding of anything and just teach totally
unstructured data without ever developing a sense of the structure of
the knowledge or what the core understanding needs to be.

your basic problem is that you are looking at the building task as
20,000 things that need to be done. in reality there is only one thing
that needs to be done and that is whatever comes next. you just keep
on doing the next task and one day you run out of things to do.
the hardest task in building an aeroplane is starting. after that it
is one interesting task after another.
after you have started the aeroplane the next hardest thing is
finishing it. the actual construction is easy by comparison.

I fly a wittman W8 tailwind. it is 22 years old. I've owned it for 6
or 7 years. a truck driver who left school in the 3rd grade built my
aircraft. he did a beautiful job of it too.

the spar is solid timber but ends at the attach fittings on the side
of the fuselage roof. the entire lift of the aircraft is taken down
through that single strut to the fittings at the base of the fuselage.
the wing fittings bolt to the fuselage with 3 bolts.

the wing is really simple. solid spars and truss ribs. they are light
and adequately strong for the loads. once the ribs are glued to the
spar the entire thing is covered with plywood to give the wing the
torsional stiffness. it is then given a fabric covering and painted.
they are no harder to build than a model aircraft.

your first task is to decide which aircraft you actually want to
build. once you've decided that you then do a period of research
understanding the plans and working out where and how you are going to
build. The thing that will make it easier for you is to join the EAA.
then find a chapter which does the sort of things you are interested
in. overcome the shyness and go and talk to other builders.
you will find in aviation some of the most interesting people (also
some idiots).
ask them to point you to some training or assistance in the jobs you
find hard.

the other thing you need is a rubbish bin. you will make mistakes so
dont be too perturbed by them. chuck the mistakes in the bin and have
another go.
my brother has had 5 attempts at bending his sonex flaps and has some
beautiful rejects in his bin.
you can tell the quality of a builder by the quality of his rubbish
bin :-)

have a go. it will be easier than you think and it gets easier when
you are an active participant. ( I died at the thought of paying $1500
for a set of cleveland hubs and brakes. I eventually picked up a pair
in a closing down sale for $25 each because I was active in the
homebuilding movement )

so mate, hop off your bum and have a go.

Stealth Pilot
Australia

On 20 Jan 2007 01:18:49 -0800, "Randy" wrote:

by the way I just love you guys named Randy. :-)

in your home town you'd probably walk up to a girl and say "Hi, I'm
Randy"

randy in australia is a colloquialism meaning sexually frustrated.
if you walked up to a girl in australia and said that you'd probably
get a backhander across the cheek :-)


Stealth Pilot

"Randy" wrote in message
ups.com...
I'm very new to all this; isn't the spar on a Wittman Tailwind or
Buttercup a solid piece of spruce with dimensions being something like

I think you are right on, with the exception of composite construction being
aircraft building for dummies. Composite projects greatly reduce the
dependance on skills like fabric covering, welding and fabrication - but
they don't usually completely eliminate them. And doing good glass work
requires a good bit practice as well.

But welding seems to be the one skill that some folks never get comfortable
with. In most every case, woodwork, fabric, sheet metal, composite and even
machine work, can be accomplished by someone with less experience, by
simply slowing down and being real methodical. But you can only weld so
slow.

But what the heck. Look around and decide what you would like to build. If
you decide on something that requires welding, make learing to weld job one.
Buy the welding equipment you intend to use and try to get comfortable with
it, before you commit to the cost of a kit or plans. Then if you don't think
you trust your welding, consider just tacking everything and hiring a
professional to weld things up - or just select a kit that doesn't require
it.

I'm aware of the meaning of "randy" in Australia and England. There's a
song that has a line "randy as a goat." Because of this, because I'm
writing to an international audience, from now on I'll use my legal
name given by my mother , Andrew, instead of the nickname given by my
father, Randy. For anything of legal importance, birth certificate,
paycheck, marriage license, diplomas, licenses...I use Andrew Ganey,
not Randy Ganey.

Thanks for your reply,

Andrew Ganey
Belleville, Illinois
U.S.A.



Stealth Pilot wrote:
On 20 Jan 2007 01:18:49 -0800, "Randy" wrote:

by the way I just love you guys named Randy. :-)

in your home town you'd probably walk up to a girl and say "Hi, I'm
Randy"

randy in australia is a colloquialism meaning sexually frustrated.
if you walked up to a girl in australia and said that you'd probably
get a backhander across the cheek :-)


Stealth Pilot

Rand... uh, Andrew:

Once you know what you're going to build and have a materials list, you
might get a better deal from Wick's. That is, if you will-call the
order and drive up to Highland for it yourself. Just a thought.

I've never had a problem knowing what I want to build. I've got 6
projects on the short list right now. My big problem is finding the
space, time, and money to both build and store all of my creations.
Following the epic drama of my last project, my roommate issued the
edict that no more planes were to be built in her garage or living
room. I'm hoping to sway that decision in my favor by building her a
deck this spring, and a teardrop trailer this summer. Still,
concentrating on a plane that can be built up from many small
sub-assemblies is not a bad idea. My wings are made of 4 5'x17'
sections and they're a real pain to transport and store.

I don't yet know how to weld either, but I did get the HF torch for
Christmas, and I'll probably get a set of tanks off ebay in another
month or two. Right now, there's too much damn snow to think about
anything else. Still 3 ft. deep in the front yard and more coming
today.

Harry Frey

"Randy" wrote in message
ups.com...
...

I know EAA has a course on welding and fabric covering and the Tony
Bingelis books and internet are also helpful. I am just wondering how
difficult it would be for a new guy, willing to learn (but not crash)
to acquire the skills and missing information to build something like a
Buttercup or Tailwind.



You wouldn't be the first - by a long shot.

On the other hand, it is possible that you wouldn't be the first to abandon
a project part way through - There is a saying that "If you want to fly -
buy." Build it only if you want to enjoy the building process. Pick
materials that you will enjoy working with.

But, sometimes you don't know till you try, right?

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
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