Cloud Flying - Experimental

Does anyone know of any Experimental - Amateur Built gliders that have
operating limitations which allow cloud flying with a Turn and Bank?

Does anyone know what many type certified designs (Schweizer 1-34
comes to mind) had to prove to be allowed to cloud fly with a Turn and
Bank installed? I have a copy of the Basic Glider Criteria Handbook
in the mail, perhaps that will provide some insight into this
question.

Shawn Knickerbocker will be presenting on cloud flying at the SSA
convention on thursday. From visiting with Shawn, it should be a
fantastic presentation and I hope to see you all there!

My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH and the certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for a "gyro panel" is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

wrote in message
ups.com...
Does anyone know of any Experimental - Amateur Built gliders that have
operating limitations which allow cloud flying with a Turn and Bank?

Does anyone know what many type certified designs (Schweizer 1-34
comes to mind) had to prove to be allowed to cloud fly with a Turn and
Bank installed? I have a copy of the Basic Glider Criteria Handbook
in the mail, perhaps that will provide some insight into this
question.

Shawn Knickerbocker will be presenting on cloud flying at the SSA
convention on thursday. From visiting with Shawn, it should be a
fantastic presentation and I hope to see you all there!

On Feb 5, 12:57 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH and the certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for a "gyro panel" is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

But the real question is would you want to fly a Nimbus 2 in those
conditions? Mine was a handful in a spin, not sure I would want to
try it in IMC.

Tim

Hmm, Mine says "Spins prohibited". However, with the fixed stab, it's a
very stable, spin resistent platform so I don't see why not. Most of the
airplanes I flew IMC were "Spin prohibited" too - never spun one IMC.

Bill Daniels


"Tim Taylor" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Feb 5, 12:57 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH and the
certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for a "gyro panel" is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

But the real question is would you want to fly a Nimbus 2 in those
conditions? Mine was a handful in a spin, not sure I would want to
try it in IMC.

Tim

On Feb 5, 4:22 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
Hmm, Mine says "Spins prohibited". However, with the fixed stab, it's a
very stable, spin resistent platform so I don't see why not. Most of the
airplanes I flew IMC were "Spin prohibited" too - never spun one IMC.

Bill Daniels

"Tim Taylor" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Feb 5, 12:57 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH and the
certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for a "gyro panel" is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

But the real question is would you want to fly a Nimbus 2 in those
conditions? Mine was a handful in a spin, not sure I would want to
try it in IMC.

Tim

yea the experimental exhibition and racing is different as it has a
POH which allows cloud flying. With amatuer built I must somehow
prove that it is safe to take the glider into clouds. Finding the
standards to prove it against has proven difficult, but I got my copy
of the Basic Glider Criteria handbook and it is looking promising.

Funny how pure glider pilots seem to think that any encounter with
clouds must result in an immediate loss of control. Properly
instrumented and most importantly, properly trained, it really is no
problem. Twins, Airliners, and even many single engine planes that
are not certified for spins fly in IMC every day with no problems.

The issue isn't spinning. In fact, holding the glider in a spin may well be
the best way of exiting a cloud after losing control. Even if the glider
isn't cleared for spinning there's a good chance you won't have a problem if
you carry out a proper spin recovery once you are well clear of the cloud.

The real danger is the combination of over-speeding and simultaneously
pulling excessive g in an attempt to recover control of the glider while
there is no pitch reference.

David Starer

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 5, 4:22 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
Hmm, Mine says "Spins prohibited". However, with the fixed stab, it's a
very stable, spin resistent platform so I don't see why not. Most of the
airplanes I flew IMC were "Spin prohibited" too - never spun one IMC.

Bill Daniels

"Tim Taylor" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Feb 5, 12:57 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH and the
certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for a "gyro panel" is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

But the real question is would you want to fly a Nimbus 2 in those
conditions? Mine was a handful in a spin, not sure I would want to
try it in IMC.

Tim

yea the experimental exhibition and racing is different as it has a
POH which allows cloud flying. With amatuer built I must somehow
prove that it is safe to take the glider into clouds. Finding the
standards to prove it against has proven difficult, but I got my copy
of the Basic Glider Criteria handbook and it is looking promising.

Funny how pure glider pilots seem to think that any encounter with
clouds must result in an immediate loss of control. Properly
instrumented and most importantly, properly trained, it really is no
problem. Twins, Airliners, and even many single engine planes that
are not certified for spins fly in IMC every day with no problems.

The issue isn't spinning. In fact, holding the glider in a spin may well be
the best way of exiting a cloud after losing control. Even if the glider
isn't cleared for spinning there's a good chance you won't have a problem if
you carry out a proper spin recovery once you are well clear of the cloud.

The real danger is the combination of over-speeding and simultaneously
pulling excessive g in an attempt to recover control of the glider while
there is no pitch reference.

David Starer


wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 5, 4:22 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
Hmm, Mine says "Spins prohibited". However, with the fixed stab, it's a
very stable, spin resistent platform so I don't see why not. Most of the
airplanes I flew IMC were "Spin prohibited" too - never spun one IMC.

Bill Daniels

"Tim Taylor" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Feb 5, 12:57 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH and the
certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for a "gyro panel" is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

But the real question is would you want to fly a Nimbus 2 in those
conditions? Mine was a handful in a spin, not sure I would want to
try it in IMC.

Tim

yea the experimental exhibition and racing is different as it has a
POH which allows cloud flying. With amatuer built I must somehow
prove that it is safe to take the glider into clouds. Finding the
standards to prove it against has proven difficult, but I got my copy
of the Basic Glider Criteria handbook and it is looking promising.

Funny how pure glider pilots seem to think that any encounter with
clouds must result in an immediate loss of control. Properly
instrumented and most importantly, properly trained, it really is no
problem. Twins, Airliners, and even many single engine planes that
are not certified for spins fly in IMC every day with no problems.

wrote:

Funny how pure glider pilots

"Glider only" ratings, you mean? Usually, "pure" means no motor in the
glider.

seem to think that any encounter with
clouds must result in an immediate loss of control. Properly
instrumented and most importantly, properly trained,

Kind of begs the question, doesn't? "You won't have problems if you do
everything right".

it really is no
problem.

Turbulence, icing, lightning, hypoxia, other gliders and airplanes - no
problem?

Twins, Airliners, and even many single engine planes that
are not certified for spins fly in IMC every day with no problems.

How much thermalling near stall do they do ;) ? And isn't flight into
IMC where lots of those single engine planes have the most problems?

I'm looking forward to Shawn's presentation at the convention. I've read
many of the stories from the older Sailplane and Gliding magazines about
cloud flight back before GPS, and it sounded like a quite an adventure.
I particularly enjoyed the ones that had sentences like this: "As I
exited the cloud at 14,000', I looked down to see nothing but water...".

Usually meant the English Channel. Not a happy place in a 30:1 glider
with iced up wings.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

"Glider only" ratings, you mean? Usually, "pure" means no motor in the
glider.

yea sorry about that, you know what i meant.

seem to think that any encounter with
clouds must result in an immediate loss of control. Properly
instrumented and most importantly, properly trained,

Kind of begs the question, doesn't? "You won't have problems if you do
everything right".

Yep.

it really is no
problem.

Turbulence, icing, lightning, hypoxia, other gliders and airplanes - no
problem?

Well this is where cloud flying has gotten its bad rap. Turbulence is
a given, its going to be there in almost any type of soaring you do.
Icing is avoidable, Lightning is avoidable. Im not talking about
using a Tstorm to get diamond altitude a la Piggot. Ive got a
stronger self preservation gene than that. Hypoxia is avoidable.
There is a way to be smart about this type of operation.
Unfortunately it seems that the ones who perhaps havent been quite so
much have spoiled it for the rest of us.

Twins, Airliners, and even many single engine planes that
are not certified for spins fly in IMC every day with no problems.

How much thermalling near stall do they do ;) ? And isn't flight into
IMC where lots of those single engine planes have the most problems?

haha very clever. This goes back to being smart about the operation.
typical flying speeds in cloud are higher, in fact much higher than
normal thermalling speeds. for one thing the lift is so much stronger
that the low speed really isnt necessary. second, and most
importantly it gives you a good cushion on stalling. And the power
traffic regularly slows to within 1.3 times the stall speed on
approach. Id say that most of the problems "those single engine
planes" encounter during IMC are pilot problems, not airplane.

I'm looking forward to Shawn's presentation at the convention. I've read
many of the stories from the older Sailplane and Gliding magazines about
cloud flight back before GPS, and it sounded like a quite an adventure.
I particularly enjoyed the ones that had sentences like this: "As I
exited the cloud at 14,000', I looked down to see nothing but water...".

Usually meant the English Channel. Not a happy place in a 30:1 glider
with iced up wings.

Can't wait to meet you there.

Tony
2000 miles from any water that a ice cube couldnt glide across

On Feb 5, 10:50 pm, wrote:
"Glider only" ratings, you mean? Usually, "pure" means no motor in the
glider.

yea sorry about that, you know what i meant.



seem to think that any encounter with
clouds must result in an immediate loss of control. Properly
instrumented and most importantly, properly trained,

Kind of begs the question, doesn't? "You won't have problems if you do
everything right".

Yep.

it really is no
problem.

Turbulence, icing, lightning, hypoxia, other gliders and airplanes - no
problem?

Well this is where cloud flying has gotten its bad rap. Turbulence is
a given, its going to be there in almost any type of soaring you do.
Icing is avoidable, Lightning is avoidable. Im not talking about
using a Tstorm to get diamond altitude a la Piggot. Ive got a
stronger self preservation gene than that. Hypoxia is avoidable.
There is a way to be smart about this type of operation.
Unfortunately it seems that the ones who perhaps havent been quite so
much have spoiled it for the rest of us.




You have to remember that Eric is to soaring what the little old lady
driving in the short 405themovie is when you are replying to him

http://www.405themovie.com/Images/Ph...l/52Co0025.JPG
http://www.405themovie.com/Images/Ph...ull/Sc0021.JPG

Let the flame wars begin LOL

Roll on summer...

Cheers

Al